Hybrid system for Sunreef 82 needed

I asked at the Nordhavn site about the DE's,here's what I received-very long reply that you have to join to get,so I'll cut/paste it here for your education,edited out a bit of fluff with a few pertinent points in red:

From Dan Streech the president of Nordhavn

"Some time back, there were some questions and comments about the subject of DE Diesel Electric. As most of you know, PAE was involved in two diesel electric projects (N7204 and N7606) and as those of you closest to PAE know, both projects ended in disaster.

The projects stretched over a 4 year period and were a classic slow motion train-wreck involving the usual suspects: flawed assumptions, poor decisions, confusion, extreme complexity, reactionary developments and momentum.

The first mistake was that the basic assumption that efficiency would be gained was dead wrong. Simply said, to use the propulsion engine to make electric power via a generator and then use that power to drive the boat via electric motors brings about a loss of efficiency. There is heat produced in the making and consuming of the electrical power and that heat goes over the side via a cooling system for the generators, motors and inverters. We all know that heat is power, so right there you have lost ground. Having an engineering background, I am almost embarrassed to admit that this simple truism was missed by all of us. Certain basic engineering principals never change and must be respected .

Because passage makers are run for long periods of time at constant speeds, they have none of the above opportunities to recapture energy, so all you are left with are the losses from wasted heat. Furthermore, modern electronically controlled diesel engines maintain their efficiency thru a wide range of loading and RPM.

Some things learnt:
-Electric thrusters and capstans which greatly simplified the hydraulic system. All hydraulics eliminated except the stabilizers.

-The ability to draw nearly unlimited amounts of 120/240 AC power from the Siemens system while underway without starting a generator. The here-to-for dream of a “cruising generator†finally realized.

-The use of the Siemens system as a replacement for an Atlas shore power conversation system. A wide range of shore power and frequency could be fed into it.

-Hi speed battery charging. The battery bank could be recharged at rates over 50KW.

-Operation of the boat under battery power- actually pretty stupid in hindsight.



The Achilles heel of this dream was that it was all controlled by a very complex microprocessor/computer system which was proprietary to these projects. There were hundreds (maybe thousands) of possible events, combinations and circumstances that needed to considered and programmed into the software- an impossible task as it turned out. Endless gremlins persisted over a long period of time and the realization that we could not rely on a problematic black box to control the entire boat doomed the project.



Other unpleasant surprises:

-The battery system was configured as a 240 volt package because that was the minimum voltage acceptable to the Siemens equipment. Interlocks and protective measures had to be taken to protect from the danger of high voltage DC power and these intimately added to the complexity and unreliability.

-The power output of the Siemens inverters was not clean or useful for house power aboard the boats. Although it had been sold to us by Siemens that the power was usable straight out of the inverter, it was polluted with embedded frequencies and noise and the ground system was not compatible with the normal marine grounding requirements. The 7 giant inverters (75 KW each, water cooled, and beautifully constructed) were intended for industrial power use and never for ordinary house power. A giant complex cleansing transformer (called the œmonster as our patience declined) was required to stabilize the power for house use and this unit consumed up to 2 KW even at rest.

-There was a battle against RF. A boat is already difficult enough to tame as far as RF is concerned. It is a fiberglass box filled with miles of wiring with various voltages, frequencies and grounding systems- all in close proximity. Toss in some industrial equipment operating at a range of frequencies, and producing over 300 KW at 600 volts with unshielded wiring and you have a witches brew.

Ultimately, the systems were ripped out of both boats and those boats were restored to conventional configurations- at a cost of millions… In early 2008, PAE sued Siemens for fraud, misrepresentation and a laundry list of failings.



If anyone out there is bored and wants some excitement in their lives, try suing a huge multi-national corporation for millions. We unleashed powerful forces!! Siemens fought like banshees and we fought back with righteous indignation- just what the attorneys love! It was a David and Goliath story.

After two years of battle, over 135,000 pages of documents analyzed, 25 depositions and over $600,000 in attorneys fees on our side alone, the Parties amicably resolved their differences to the satisfaction of all concerned.

So, case closed, boats fixed and we are back to normal. The above story will explain why it will be many many years (probably beyond my career) before another hybrid project will be undertaken by PAE.

I want to take this moment to publically thank the two Nordhavn owners who lived thru this adventure with us. Both owners were wonderful in their support of PAE and their patience as we worked as a team to solve the problems. For the sake of privacy, I wont mention their names here, but I can tell you that both boats are now in perfect condition and happily cruising- one in the Bahamas and one in the Pacific Northwest.



As I read back thru this story, I realize that many other details could have been included and certain questions may still remain unanswered for the readers. Please feel free to ask me questions. I will answer them as best as I can.



I will finish this narrative with a little humor In the middle of the DE debacle; Jim Leishman arrived at one of our Wednesday production meetings saying that he had a big announcement about a wonderful device. With great drama, he described a magnificent machine which fit in a small box and made huge amounts of AC power and had a life of many thousands of hours. It was quiet and dependable and all you had to do was feed it a little bit of diesel fuel With the group spellbound waiting for his answer, he announced its called a GENERATOR.

 

I did not point towards the old Nigel Calder articles.

The Siemens did not fail technically, quite the opposite! (you should talk with people having them installed)
They just could not provide any advantage over conventional propulsion. And absolutely the same is valid for your setup.

At present it is impossible to beat a Diesel / CPP installation. period

The fact, that we have absolutely NOTHING new to await on the battery market for at least another 10 - 15 years, makes thinking about your and other Hybrid systems moot. (or insane, pick your poison)

This old NDA ******** we hear on every other occasion when someone comes up here with a "new" idea or system. Yours is neither new, nor a system, it is just ballast. Very expensive ballast!

West,

thanks, exactly what I preach here since ages!

Regards
Richard

 

All, see my Post 21 for our evaluation of why hybrid propulsion MAY be more a better choice then a diesel only configuration. We agree with you that IF a boat is only run at it's most efficient point (which is a wider range with CRI technology) AND there is very small house loads, THEN it is probably going to be more efficient tan a hybrid system. If that is the way that you run your boat and you do not put any value on other benefits of a hybrid system, then you are better off staying with the latest CRI technology and NOT spending the extra money on a hybrid system! But, if you do not run your CRI diesel at it's most efficient point all the time AND you have more than minimum house loads AND you value the other benefits that may not be quantifiable, then you should explore a hybrid system.

We offer serial, parallel and electric only configurations. Depending on the user's needs, requirements and desires (which may not be quantifiable), depends upon the configuration that we would propose. We are not beyond suggesting to a potential customer that a pure CRI diesel may be a good alternative. However, our experience is that customers that contact us have made a decision that they want to explore the benefits of hybrid and may be willing to spend some extra upfront money to gain the benefits of a hybrid system.

 

Or spend $10k on a CPP as opposed to $$$$$$?

I assume you won't read the Sunreef thread:
Roughly, for every kw/hr (1.3 hp per hour) you need 200 lbs and $650 worth of AGM batteries.

So if you need 100 hp for one hour you'll need 7.5 tons and $50k worth of batteries.

Where's that video of the Volvo bus showing gph,and the gps showing various speeds?

 

In case you missed it the last 4 times..

When can we expect a video???

 

In case you missed it, I offered to get anyone on a ride so they can see for themselves. Also, I stated that we will be doing a launch early 2011. ReGen will post information at the appropriate time, according to our time schedule. If you cannot wait, then take us up on the offer to go for a ride and see for yourself.

 

Don´t know why you are so focussed on CRI engines. A old Grenaa Diesel with a CPP outperforms every recent CRI engine in standard configuration.

And you say "very small" houseloads. That is cheating again. Your and others hybrid systems can be a sensible choice only, when EXTREMELY high house loads are required, which is never the case on boats and yachts.

No way round mate, you try to sell expensive nonsense, not propulsion systems.

 

In case you missed it,I'm not willing to spend $1500 on a trip where all I have is some guy's promises and who won't post a simple video.

Trust me,it's not the money...it's the hassle involved.

And I guess the non disclosure agreement states I cannot film and post "proof" on youtube???

GREAT!!! I guess that means you won't need to post here for a few months...or until you post a link to a youtube video showing gph vs speed...

 

Putting it in simple terms

When are peeps gonna learn that cars & boats are 2 different animals. Hybrid cars are great because cars use power at various rates when operating. Now you go hybrid and use steady state power to recharge the batteries and use the stored power on demand for propulsion. Great increase in efficiency FOR CARS!!! Now boats on the other hand 90% of the time use steady state power for propulsion. Once you clear the harbor you set the sticks at cruise speed and they stay there until you get to where your going. You have to burn X amount of fuel to move Y amount of boat from point A to point B. Weather it gets burned in a main propulsion system or in a genset charging batteries or even in an onshore municipal power plant charging the batteries dock side. X amount of fuel will be burned to move Y amount of boat from point A to point B. Hybrid systems are in production and use. But for a different reason. In some parts of Europe they have noise and pollution laws so strict that only electrics can be run. But the current technology is limited as to what a 100% electric can do. Enter the marine hybrid. Runs on electricity in the tree hugger's restricted areas then when you get out into open water you kick in the diesel propulsion to run and charge the batteries at the same time. Submarines in WW2 used the same system but the used the electrical propulsion in dive mode. For those of you who wanna read up google Nanni Diesel Hybrid. C-ya

 

With battery technology today, there is only a small penalty for storing energy, which is much less of a penalty then running a diesel at an inefficient rpm and load.


The solution to a really efficient diesel can be done $100,000 cheaper at least 3 ways.

A CPP will get close if the engine is not too over sized for the LRC hp required.

A "cruise prop" that makes the engine work far harder at low cruise speeds can work very well, but an EGT must be installed , and the throttle limits observed.

Big buck folks can purchase a ZF 2 speed tranny and use the big reduction gearing for full throttle full speed operations
OR shift to less reduction and load the engine properly at cruise RPM, but the EGT limits will still need to be observed.

True the ZF may eat 2% or 3% heating the gear oil and churning it , but that's a hell of a lot more efficient than some electric nightmare , from some parts bin.

In a lake , bay cruiser , who cares? , a tow rope is near,

For a cruiser a decades proven systems work better.

FF

 

Cummins and Peterbilt

I have been watching the DE market for over a year now trying to find ways to save myself some money. I am an over the road owner operator truck driver and a recreational sailor.
For a DE idea that might work on a boat check out the partnership between Peterbilt and Cummins. Cummins makes a low power engine for the local truck market. Sandwiched in between the engine and trans is an electric motor which will propel the truck to no more than 35mph. It operates on it's own 3 batteries that can be recharged via the on engine alt or thru a genset. Also, they have an over the road truck that uses the Eaton Hybrid Power System with a similar setup.

Somebody tell me if this same setup could be used in a boat. I am wanting to use electric propulsion to get my boat past the wake zone and into the open water where the diesel engine will kick in and take over. Or use the electric motor when docking.

 

Instead of coming here and demanding info, why don't YOU read a little.

Why don't YOU email Cummins and ask them???

 

In short,

yes, when you limit the el. range to a few yards, no problem.

No, if you count the extra weight and expenses which never pay back.

And you cannot transfer road technique to boats.

Regards
Richard

 

"I am wanting to use electric propulsion to get my boat past the wake zone and into the open water where the diesel engine will kick in and take over. Or use the electric motor when docking."


No problem any good sized trolling motor will do this, and operate your dink as well.

FF