Budgeting the Build of a 35' steel sailboat; worthwhile costs vs. extravagance

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by welder/fitter, Sep 12, 2010.

  1. wardd
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    wardd Senior Member

    I'll give you some time ti figure it out , lol
     
  2. Lampy08
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    Lampy08 Junior Member

     
  3. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Same skills required & post #1 specifies qualified designers.
     
  4. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    No one here is a miracle worker, Dennis. $1000/year doesn't a boat make, imho. If you're able to keep/build a boat at your light station, I noticed a large FC in Deep Cove that the owner has had to give up on due to health. It's on Vancouver Craigslist & is quite cheap. Don't know how you'd get it there though. The fellow I mentioned who bought the aluminum may still have his Roberts345 sitting in/near Gibsons. It needs a ton of work & is just the basic metal, but it'd be a start. I'll send you his e-mail in a pm, if I still have it.
     
  5. Lampy08
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    Lampy08 Junior Member

    I have a good anchorage here and if she were water tight and weather proof I could work on her as weather permitted. I could probably call in a favour to get her towed here. If I could build from scratch I have a good spot by the helicopter pad where I would have power and foot access easy to launch from there on a high tide. Pulling a finished hull up to there would be difficult, but launching would be all down hill, probably fun too!
    Keeping in the theme of the thread; buying such a pre built hull, sight unseen as I would have to do, one would be foolish not to have it looked at by some one who knew what to look for. What would be a fair price to expect. Is surveying done on a flat rate or is it figured on a per boat basis?
     
  6. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    I don't know how much work the owner did after I stopped & he moved it to Gibsons. When I last worked on it, there was still a lot of repairs to be made - someone butchered the stbd side bow & the hull & deck couldn't decide if they were innies or outies(lol) - but it was basically a hull, deck & keel at that point, with a lot of extra material. Not a project for the faint of heart, but cheap & great practice, if nothing else. If you have no issues with ferrocement, that one in Deep Cove would be worth a close look.
     
  7. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Worthwhile costs vs. extravagance

    There are certain issues which we really can't address on this thread, because they depend so much on the location and/or finances of the builder, as well as other considerations that are unique to the individual builder. Keeping that in mind, for the prospective first-time builder, in other words, someone who is "thinking about building a steel sailboat", there is a division between what most of us would consider to be a reasonable choice for someone building their first boat and what would be deemed unreasonable.
    Examples could be welding processes, materials selection for construction & fittings, rig choices, etc.

    Consider the welding processes. One might consider SMAW(stick), GMAW(MIG, solid-wire), FCAW(flux-core). But, does one consider GTAW(TIG)? To those who weld/have knowledge of welding I'd suggest that the first three suggestions are all logical choices. But, on this and other forums I have read posts where a first-time builder(to be) is thinking about TIG welding an entire boat. Personally, I'd suggest that this is an unreasonable idea, even for tacking. I think that others would agree? However, there is a value in TIG, for some, in work on stainless/aluminum fittings. But, for the builder who is on a tight budget, which process do we recommend? While the initial cost of stick equipment is less, the wire processes are much faster.

    Other equipment for working the steel must also be considered. I believe that those who are comfortable with plasma-arc cutting would strongly promote it over oxy-fuel cutting, yet, if the builder is on a tight budget, do we say that this should/should not be given priority in how the builder spends his/her money? Plasma-arc is a wonderful thing. I hated it when I first used it, but was forced to use it. Now, I love it. But, is it considered essential? No.

    For about a year, I've been following the progress on the welding web of a fellow in Norway who is building an aluminum-hull boat & using TIG for a significant amount of tacking:
    http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=29094
    In some of his posts he mentions the number of hours he spends on forming & attaching each strake. While I wish him the best of luck, it seems to be a very slow way to go about building a boat.

    Then there is the consideration of materials. The two greatest disadvantages in using steel to build a 35 foot(10.7m) sailboat are weight and the consideration of corrosion. So what are reasonable and unreasonable considerations for the first-time builder? I saw a post a few months ago where a prospective builder was asking about building a boat of stainless steel. To me, that would seem unreasonable, at least as a recommendation. Do-able? Sure. What about HSLA(high strength, low alloy) steels? While some will read this as COR-TEN, others will note that there is a wide range of HSLA steels. But, is it worth the investment &, sometimes, greater welding & pre/post treatment challenges for the first-time builder? I believe that it is not, but others may see it differently.

    My plan in doing this thread is to take what appears to be the consensus on each discussed issue, list them on a thread as recommendations, and ask Jeff to apply a "sticky" to that thread in the metal boat building section of these forums. The thread would direct the reader to this thread, in case the reader wanted to read the discussion which lead to the recommendations in the sticky. Though many things discussed can be applied to building power boats, I do want to delve into recommendations of rudder-types, skegs, etc., and, whether here or in another thread, members will be able to suggest additions to the sticky, as valuable contributions are made. Still, some things are not worth putting in a sticky, such as name brands of paints, as what is popular today might be yesterday's news tomorrow, when some better product comes out.

    An example might be:

    1) Plans - For the amateur first-time builder, there is concensus that what is of primary importance is not the price of the plans one buys, rather, the completeness & quality of the plans. In other words, there is no value in buying one designer's plans simply because they are the cheapest. The plans must serve their intended purpose, which is to guide the builder in all/most aspects of constructing a specific boat. While there are obvious personal choices in propulsion & other systems, fixtures, fittings, etc., there is also value in the designer's recommendations.

    (...or some such statement)
     
  8. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    I think that this depends on a few other factors when amateur one-off builds are contemplated.

    Do you have an undercover/protected work site?
    What power supply is available?

    It is pointless using MIG and shielding gas if it's windy and you're working outdoors. Flux cored would work but the wire is damn expensive.

    It is equally pointless if all the electrical power you have is a 240V 15A supply as the duty cycle of small MIG machines is pathetic. IMO if you can't run at least 0.9mm solid wire then you can't use a MIG welder as the 0.6mm wire machines simply can't get enough heat into the work for quality welds on 6mm plate let alone 10mm.

    A limitation of MIG welders is the short stinger length meaning that you need to move the machine all the time. Smaller units, less of a problem as they're portable.

    For the size boat under discussion here you don't NEED more than a 140A AC stick welder running for the most part 2.5mm E4111 rods.

    I did all the welding on my 38' Colvin design using an AC welder and either 2.5mm E4111 rods or 4mm E7024 iron powder rods for the heavy keel shoe. In retrospect I would have been better off swapping to the MIG when I started welding the stringers to the frames provided I was using solid wire and gas shielding because I've spent a lot of time with a grinder dressing those welds. I have now swapped to the gasless MIG welder for attaching the 4mm hull plate - it's a lot easier doing overhead welds with a MIG than it is with a stick welder, and the gun is also lighter. I'm going to bring my 250A 3 phase MIG welder back from Sydney and use that now.

    My recommendation would be that, provided you had a protected work area and power supply capable of supporting at least a 150A MIG welder that could supply its max output at a 25% duty cycle, go MIG and borrow a stick welder to do any critical welds where you want 100% root penetration. Otherwise just use a stick welder and E4111 rods, accept the time hit and invest in a couple more angle grinders.

    I have 6 angle grinders anyway because I hate swapping from cutting to grinding to wire brush to flap wheel.

    I would definitely recommend a plasma cutter provided once again you can feed it the power it needs. My Chinese made 50A unit cost $600 AUD and NEEDS a 240V 15A supply to run it. You also need an air compressor but I've been successful in using one of the hardware store handyman units that would be lucky to put out 3 cfm. Still another $200 or so though.

    My plasma cutter can sever up to 10mm plate, probably 12mm, but the cut isn't pretty. Then again my gas cuts aren't pretty either so.... 10mm to 12mm is enough for a boat of this size though, generally. The plasma cutter can also cut stainless and ally whereas the gas rig can't, but the gas rig can be used for heating and the plasma cutter can't. Always tradeoffs.

    FWIW.

    PDW
     
  9. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    If you can't afford the tools, building a boat is not realistic. A plasma cutter is a cheaper option than gas cutting. Add up the cost of gas and compare. Cutting and grinding wheels are another major expense. Cheap tools, specially welders, are a poor choice. They are the most critical part of building a metal boat. Welding a hull is not like making patches in farm machinery. The welding sequence is crucial to prevent stresses and keeping the plates from deforming. A typical characteristic of amateur builds is the thick fairing compound. There are many manuals on welding boats.
     
  10. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Mike/PDW

    You both raise excellent points which are more often than not over looked when starting.

    I would also add into this 'mixing bowl' of choices, ease of useage and hence how comfortable one feels in producing quality welds.

    The reason why some prefer TIG, for example, despite all the usual caveats is that the person using it feels more comfortable using it and can also satisfy themselves that their weld is of an acceptable quality. Whereas they would not be so comfortbale nor happy with the results from say MIG.

    I like sketching on graph-type paper, others like plain etc. We choose what we feel comfortable with, not necessaily what is best or better.
     
  11. TwoByFour
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    TwoByFour Junior Member

    Thanks for starting (and the follow-up) this thread welder/fitter. Hopefully it will continue and people will keep contributing things that are relevant to it.

    My thoughts are that most people who get the idea to build their own steel boat of this size, are not of high income. I know that there are exceptions to this but I think it is true as a generalization. People have dreams about sailing (sometimes they have experience with sailing too, but not always) and perhaps some fabricating skills and they think that they might be able to afford building a boat as long as they did most of the work themselves. Most of the time people do not realise how much it really takes to build a proper boat. Not everyone who starts a boat building adventure makes it to the finish line, but some do...even ones who start with unrealistic ideas and underestimate the cost, complexity and build time.

    People who can easily afford a boat, are more likely to just buy one. Just like those who can buy a new car instead of getting a wreck and fixing it themselves, as someone with limited income might do.

    I do think that it is important that people with experience in boat design and building give the newbies and amateurs a lot of warnings about it being more expensive and more complex than they expect, because it is very true. I don't believe lying to people helps them, at least not in this case.

    With increasing availability of information from amateurs (and pros) who have successfully built their own boats, I think it is becoming easier for people who are considering building a boat to find relevant information to base their decisions and methods on. 10 years ago things were a lot different.

    I was thinking about making an extensive list of pros and cons of different welding processes, but I came to the conclusion that it was probably a bit too much as there are comparative lists elsewhere on the web. So I decided to just give my opinion.

    I would say it is a question of what your welding skills and what sort of facilities and equipment you have and how much money you have to throw into the project.

    If I were to start from scratch and didn't have any equipment, I would go for GMAW for the hull itself, unless I were building outdoors, in which case I would pick FCAW. In essence the same machine, so it would be possible to switch between processes as needed. The high productivity and lower thermal input compared to SMAW are the main reasons.

    For welding indoors, the amount of toxic fumes from GMAW or FCAW are much more than from GMAW and it is a much cleaner process. The high productivity and low welding filler cost compensate for the cost of shielding gas.

    If I were building on an extremely tight budget, I might not use any stainless. If I had money for stainless, I would probably get a small GTAW machine for fabricating the stainless bits, and the more money I had, I would probably use the GTAW more on welding the stainless bits to the hull with 309 filler, otherwise I would just do it with the GMAW and 309 filler wire.

    It must be said about GTAW that it is extremely expensive and slow compared to the other 3 aforementioned processes but also much cleaner and eliminates much of the grinding work that's required with the other. Compared to GMAW or FCAW it is more likely to cause problems with distortion due to higher thermal input.

    Enough for now :)

    Carl.
     
  12. Wynand N
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    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Welding is the most critical part of the boat - that's what keeps it together.

    Inverter MIG machines are quite affordable (light) and I used 200A 220V units with 60% cycle duty and run them all day long not stop using about 160A burning 1.2mm wire. IOW, amateurs can afford a good machine at reasonable price.
    But that said; MIG machine can be dangerous in the hands of a non welder. Yes, it is the easiest welding technique to master and use. A weld is just as strong as its penetration, and I had seen many a nice looking MIG welds let go under stress due to lack of fusion. The bad part of such a weld is that it is difficult to spot, especially the amateur - rather have to much juice on tap than to little with a MIG.

    Since the keyword is amateur, hence my terminology used describing welding types instead of "pro naming" my recommendation for a first build would be to get a nice DC converter arc welder of about 200A and that machine can perform non stop 24/7 at a rated ~135A for 3.15mm electrodes. These machines are relative cheap nowadays.

    Tip for the amateur not sure how to set his arc welder for desired electrode to be used: multiply electrode thickness by 40, for example:
    2.5mm x 40 = 100A. This should give you a reasonable good weld and penetration. Of course, this is a guideline only and you can fine tune for different positions...
     
  13. bearflag
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    bearflag Inventor/Fabricator

    This is the approach that I am doing. But I am also building models, conducting tests, building a smaller hobby sized boat before I do the real thing.

    It helps that I have a physics background, CAD/CAE skills, wood working, welding, electronics, etc etc. though. It helps a lot.

    :)
     
  14. TwoByFour
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    TwoByFour Junior Member

    Very true that it can be hard to spot insufficient penetration with MIG compared to stick, where it is easily spotted. You can easily make MIG "welds" that appear OK to the less experienced, but have hardly any penetration. This is especially true with downhill welds.

    It can be confusing to beginners that some use words such as MIG, TIG and Stick while others use the "fancy" four letter words GMAW, GTAW and SMAW. I think it's a question of what part of the world you're in, not especially a question of professionals vs. amateurs. In my part of the world no-one uses the four letter words, not even the most professional of professionals. Perhaps welding engineers are more prone to use the four letter words, but they don't usually do a lot of welding and in some cases don't even have welding skills. I do think it is useful to know all of these terms though, if for example you want to search for welding information online, as a lot of good papers on welding have the four letter terms in them. For example I was reading up on welding 2205 duplex stainless the other day, and most of the information I found only used the 4 letter words. Not that I expect many amateurs to dig themselves in that deep, but who knows.

    Wikipedia now has quite good articles on welding and has clarification on the terms for those who don't know already :)


    A very useful tip :)


    Carl
     

  15. TwoByFour
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    TwoByFour Junior Member

    In my part of the world plasma is much less expensive than using Acetylene and Oxygen, in the long run at least as initially the equipment is more expensive. Until recently there was only one company on the gas market (Linde Group / AGA) and you cannot own your own gas tanks, you have to rent each tank at a price of 100 USD a year. As an example for gas prices, Argon is at 150 USD now for 10.9 NM3 (385 normal cubic feet). I would find it interesting to hear from you others how much are you paying for your gas.

    Welding a boat is very different from doing repair welds on farm machinery or cars, but I would say that any experience helps to make a proficient welder.

    Everything costs money and often the small parts that you forget to take into calculation end up costing more than the big parts.

    Are there any good boat-building welding manuals online that you know of, Gonzo?


    Carl.
     
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