has anyone used Smith & company Epoxy

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by akkevin, Aug 23, 2010.

  1. akkevin
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 32
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Petersburg, Ak

    akkevin Junior Member

    Oh thanks to every one that contributed to this. I'll go back to posting on "My Project" for updates
     
  2. peter radclyffe
    Joined: Mar 2009
    Posts: 1,454
    Likes: 72, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 680
    Location: europe

    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    caulking works on wedge friction, as you know, the smoother you make a seam surface , the easier the caulking can release from the seam as the hull wracks & ruins
     
  3. akkevin
    Joined: Jun 2010
    Posts: 32
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Petersburg, Ak

    akkevin Junior Member

    caulking works on wedge friction, as you know, the smoother you make a seam surface , the easier the caulking can release from the seam as the hull wracks & ruins

    Actually I don't know as I'm a beginner at best. Thus my gratitude to this forum.
     
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    You are as confused by the product you promote.

    It is crap!

    Choosing the moisture content? How? Why?
    On trailer boats, which you refer to, nobody has the problem your snakeoil is trying to cure! Trailerboats have the problem to be too dry!

    On larger boats you cannot choose the moisture content without destroying the entire structure by loosening the planking.
    Your snakeoil will not bring them back in place, be sure.

    You have obviously no idea about wooden boats, built to the classical methods and standards, but you argue with three professionals having more than a century of experience under their belt, accumulated.

    Caulked seams have to be recaulked, not sealed. Wooden structures have to stay "open" not encapsulated. Caulking has to be executed to the same standard as the original was. period

    Not worth to comment further on your silly post one page ago, therefore:

    over and out!

    Richard
     
  5. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    To be fair with all those lurkers, searching for proper advice here:

    Linseed oil, cold pressed, not boiled, is the only material which penetrates wood deeply, if not completely!

    When dried thoroughly, it prevents from rot and mold also. It can be used on all timber and has no environmental impact nor any hazard for the user.

    If you want to go the all the classical way, you can mix it with "Stockholm Tar" (Pine Tar)

    Here a source for our US members:

    http://www.solventfreepaint.com/cleaned_linseed_oil.htm

    Cheaper than snakeoil and proven for centuries.........

    Regards
    Richard
     
  6. Riccelli Yachts
    Joined: Sep 2010
    Posts: 10
    Likes: 6, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 190
    Location: Eustis, Florida

    Riccelli Yachts Yacht designer & Builder

    This thread has gotten out of hand with the inaccuracies and mis-information, thus the record should be set straight. Those that recognize my logo may realize my level of understanding on the subject.

    1 - Penetrating epoxies (CPES, etc.) do penetrate wood (so does lots of stuff).
    2 - Penetrating epoxies do leave behind a coating, within the cellular structure of the wood.
    3 - Penetrating epoxies do limit the amount of moisture vapor mitigation into surrounding substrates.
    4 - Penetrating epoxies can be used to control moisture content in wood.
    5 - Penetrating epoxies are not a very effective "sealant".
    6 - Penetrating epoxies are an effective wood primer, under paint.
    7 - Dan Dannenberg and the like minded.

    Okay, now Richard and others are bunching up their panties. Maybe partly because they haven't seen my logo in a while and partly from the statements in the second paragraph. The second paragraph is completely true, tests have plainly born this out, the debate has been over for some time, but . . .

    1 - Testing has shown that one; the addition of solvents does help epoxy resin penetrate wood and two; that this particular trait isn't necessary, nor desirable for a good waterproof seal. In fact, testing has shown that the amount of penetration into wood doesn't have anything to do with the ability of a product to make something waterproof. What has been found from testing is, it's all about the quality of the coating employed, not how far it's penetrated into wood.

    2 - When a penetrating epoxy is applied, it eventually leaves a coating of plastic within the wood structure. Because of the reactive diluents and modifiers used in most penetrating epoxy formulations (their big failing point BTW) are grotesquely unable to offer moisture vapor ingress protection, though they can slow it a little, depending on application technique.

    3 - Since we've gotten to it, these epoxy types can be employed with other products to effectively prevent moisture vapor penetration (the real goal of waterproofing). Interestingly enough the usual "other" products are epoxies with much higher, preferably 100% solids content after cure. The amount of moisture vapor ingress a penetrating epoxy can resist, is purely subject to the amount of solids in the final results of one's effort. In other words, one coat of CPES really doesn't do much, but several can be considerably better.

    4 - There are occasions where penetrating epoxies can be employed with good success. This once, not so long ago was on just about everything imaginable, but in recent years has diminished considerably. Some times the "hot on hot" method can't be employed, so a vehicle penetration might be considered (though a non-reactive modifier is a much better choice). This is when a penetrating epoxy should be considered. Other instances may include partial restoration of highly damaged material for molding, sampling or as a fore runner to restoration. I've used penetrating epoxies to hold damage at a constant, until I could get at the cause or address this element of the project. Admittedly, I find I have less and less need for this material (penetrating epoxies), but occasionally, it's just the ticket.

    5 - As has been suggested and the physical properties clearly show, penetrating epoxies aren't an effective sealant, if waterproofing and moisture vapor penetration into a substrate is a desired goal. Most of these products dry full of out gassing pin holes and literally flash off their bulk, leaving a web of, non-inter linked, overlapping carbon molecules chains with limited ability to prevent moisture getting past it. Even with several coats, the best thing you can do to a penetrating epoxy is apply a full strength, 100% solids epoxy over it, which makes one wonder why employ the penetrating epoxy in the first place.

    6 - Because of these types of products penetration, they make good paint or varnish primers. Personally, I'd rather use viscosity reduction techniques on regular epoxy resins, if I was going the epoxy as a primer route, but penetrating epoxies are also very good. I see no advantage to their use, except on highly flexible substrates, where they'll out perform a regular epoxy all day long. Given the price of primer in comparison, I use primer unless I have a specific reason for penetrating epoxy.

    7 - Those that know me, know I don't care much for folks that are married to their ideals so fervidly that new information just can't be absorbed. I consider these types useless and tend to question all they might have an opinion about. Larry Pardey is a classic example of this insidious mentality. He still thinks epoxy is a fad. Dan Dannenberg is a skilled and able craftsmen, but also one of these stuck in his own rut types. He can't see past his own nose and this is a sin as he's got some mad boat building skills.

    I've spent my whole life making adjustments to my understanding of the world. I was taught Pluto was a planet, but apparently it's only a planetoid. I'll bet both Larry and Dan just can't get their head around this and insist it's just a passing fad.

    You can debate the penetrating epoxy myths all day, but the tests and the jury has long since come in. The big selling point with penetrating epoxy is it's ability to penetrate. Tests has shown it doesn't matter what the penetration level is, it's the quality of the cured coating that is the determining factor. This means that the penetration thing is nothing more then a marketing ploy. Just like using the word copper in a bottom coating product or the word epoxy in a paint product. Both words are designed to sell product, regardless of testing results.
     
    3 people like this.
  7. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Welcome back Paul !!!!
     
  8. Jeff
    Joined: Jun 2001
    Posts: 1,368
    Likes: 71, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 923
    Location: Great Lakes

    Jeff Moderator

    Agreed -- very happy to see you here again!
     
  9. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    My kind of guy :) Would you come over to give a little help? Pine (Stockholm) tar is the flavor all around, a delight!
    Its my Chanel No5
    Daniel
     
  10. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Nice to see you Paul.
    :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
     
  11. Riccelli Yachts
    Joined: Sep 2010
    Posts: 10
    Likes: 6, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 190
    Location: Eustis, Florida

    Riccelli Yachts Yacht designer & Builder

    Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Water penetrates wood pretty darn good, to the point of saturation. Most petroleum based solvents do as well. I fail to see the logic or rational with clearly incorrect information like this. I've all but stopped using linseed oil in favor of tung, which is better in every regard then linseed.

    Translation issues aside, this also isn't correct. I've pulled plenty of well rotten planks, floors, stringers, etc. from yachts that were carefully treated with linseed and other "natural" preservatives. So, again the question of logic and rational come to mind with this mind set.

    There are many ways to prevent rot, Daniel, Richard and I agree on most of the usual suspects but none is "all encompassing", none a "cure all". The bottom line with rot prevention is care. With proper care a boat carved from a solid block of raw balsa could be kept in fine condition. Naturally, a raw balsa boat would regular an absurd amount of care, but the details in this type of care would be the same as for any wooden yacht. These generally are, keeping it clean (especially places that are difficult to access or like to stay wet), ventilation and routine inspection.

    I have a boat of my own design and construction. It's 20 and hasn't a drop of paint anywhere on it. The boat is entirely varnished and it looks fine after two decades. Of course it's had good care, which is the only reason it's in such good shape. This is what good care is all about. each year I'm required to put about 30 hours of labor into her upkeep. The vast majority of this annual labor is not hull material choices related.
     
  12. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Of course I was referring to wood preventing materials which one would use recaulking a boat. Water was a bit out of my focus, but I stand corrected, it penetrates wood!

    Tung I have forgotten (though I used a mix of tung oil on a wheelhouse not long ago).
     
  13. Riccelli Yachts
    Joined: Sep 2010
    Posts: 10
    Likes: 6, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 190
    Location: Eustis, Florida

    Riccelli Yachts Yacht designer & Builder

    Kerosene is a very common preservative, used in traditional build methods. As are many liquids, such as diesel, gasoline, turpentine, mineral spirits, glycol, xylene, Penatrol, all sorts of oils, including used and unused motor oil, every imaginable fruit oil, vegetable oil, mineral oil and my hands down favorite home brew for stopping rot and use as timber preservative urine (it doesn't have to be human, but apparently it's believed that drunks have the best). Yep, there are folks that will swear and stand by every single item listed here. Some have home made, crazy concoctions that would just make things smell bad if tested for actual performance attributes. I'm here to tell you that it's all rubbish to a large degree. Even the worst built boat, of the worst materials, cared for well, will last.

    Linseed makes wood darken very quickly. This is the reason I don't use it any more and tung is far better in this regard. The other physical properties are very similar between the two.

    If you heat up slow or extra slow epoxy to about 100 to 110 degrees and apply it to a wooden part, that has been also heated to 100 degrees, but has been moved to a location where it's cooler, you'll get penetration. Lord you'll get penetration like you can't believe, as the air inside the wooden cellular structure contracts, it draws in the much lowered viscosity epoxy, like a sponge. I've done this no small number of times now and quite often it draws in so well, that it looks like you didn't apply much epoxy or that there are clearly visible bare spots. These spots aren't actually bare, but have sucked in all the epoxy and needs more to seal the pores of the wood. Subsequent coatings will fix this issue. The end result is not only well penetrated, but 100% solids and waterproof and you didn't need any solvents to make it happen.
     
  14. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 3,497
    Likes: 147, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2291
    Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    The best (maybe only) way to cure rot is to burn it. Ideally, after it has been removed from the boat/house/fence of course.

    Kevin: welcome to the forum. Since you mention caulking you seem to have a carvel built boat. These are designed to take up water and can be wrecked by hauling them out and letting them dry too much. They control the amount of moisture they need by leaking until the planks expand to seal the leak, provided the seams are in good shape. Years ago a friend of mine lost a classic carvel built offshore racing yacht to rot and excessive drying. He tried to stop the rot with a coat of epoxy and seal the seams with silicone caulking. If I knew then what little I know now perhaps I could have helped him save her.

    Welcome back Paul! You presence will lend us grace.
     

  15. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    All well Paul,

    but not applicable when recaulking a carvel oldie, right? But that was the question.

    The urea trick is not really bad, urea is a mycotoxin.

    Oh, and don´t bother about my pants. I was nude when you chimed in again.:cool:

    Regards
    Richard
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.