Stitch & glue outrigger to glass inside or not?

Anyone who has declared someone else to be an idiot, a bad apple, is annoyed when it turns out in the end that he isn't.
Friedrich Nietzsche

 

Whoever has provoked men to rage against him has always gained a party in his favor, too.
Friedrich Nietzsche

 

No Chris,

on a technical level you may have a clue (though I personally do´nt see where, you provide wood epoxy methods but doubt their performance), but do not please screw with my education and tradition.

Nietzsche is so far above your level of comprehension, you have not the slightest idea what he meant.
If you would, you would act and argue accordingly, but thats miles away from your behaviour.

Kant, Hegel and Nietzsche, you tell a German what philosophy is?

You are not completely illiterate, but don´t mix "Wikipedia" with education!

Also sprach Zarathustra...........

Richard

no regards in this case...

 

What does not destroy me, makes me stronger.
Friedrich Nietzsche

B.S.

 

What did not destroy me left me broken and battered.
Myself

 

Let's see, just where does one begin in such a target rich environment...

Hoyt... you're trying too hard. Much too hard. There's a cleanliness to the thinking that still escapes you. You have a good essential soul, so stay with it.

Richard... Where to begin with you would probably have to do with your inescapable lack of how to ride a fast motorcycle. You got beat down hard on that one and still have a sour attitude because if it. Then there was that minor dust-up about air deflection foils where you thought you had the only answer and were proven wrong. Thinking too much in the box will do that to a person.

This last go-round, in which you failed, repeatedly, to answer germane (not German) questions sank you to an all time low, my friend. When the opponent can't formulate sensible answers in a debate and resorts to name calling and bombast, you have him reeling. Truly, it was fun, but it's now time to let this repast fall to the wayside.

We all get that you are a grumpy, arrogant German dude, but do you have to go out of your way, well beyond your limits to prove it? I wouldn't have used the reference to your nationality in normal conversation, but you opened the door.

Thumping your consciousness with Nietzsche is but one way to bring it all home to you. Consider yourself intellectually buzzed. I know it got to you, because you said you wouldn't have another thing to say... yet, here you are, rising to the well-tossed bait because... well, because you just can't help yourself. It's your nature. Good thing I'm a catch and release kind of guy.

Adios, Ricardo. I'm sure you'll have another pile of steam to vent, but you'll be doing it on your own.

Oughtta here.

 

Pelagic Chris, stop speaking in a condescending manner. I am too old to take a lecture from you and I rejected Nietzsche decades ago. Is that simple and clear enough for you?

 

Chris, when I said that I hate the term "epoxy saturation" this was too strong I simply think that "epoxy sealing", "epoxy coating" would be more appropriate as it describes what is happening far more accurately.
I do not have any saved documents that I can share but I recall that standard marine epoxy systems will penetrate side grain cedar approx 80 microns, solvent thinned epoxy approx 120, epoxy thinned with reactive diluents about 100 microns.
For me to describe something that will only penetrate approx 0.1mm be it on a 20mm cedar strip or 3mm ply as saturation is not logical. After all when you paint your house or a boat for that matter you do not refer to it as paint saturation but coating.
Anyhow this is not important.

Also the increase in penetration is not worth bothering with, say you need 300 microns of epoxy for an effective coating, does it really matter if this is achieved by having 80 microns absorbed and 220 on the surface versus 120 absorbed and 180 on the surface?
I do not know about US but locally most of the solvent thinned epoxy has disappeared from the market, that must say something.

Now if one wants to chase that extra bit of penetration then I would not recommend getting reactive diluents and adding this to an epoxy and then having to recalculate the mix ratio. Far better to get some low viscosity infusion grade epoxy, this way you know you are not going to screw up the resin hardener ratio. The downside is that the epoxy will cost about 20- 30% more and will take most likely double number of coats to achieve the same film thickness.

Redreuben, there are two paths that one can take to achieve better moisture resistant epoxy.
One is to look for a curing agent that produces the cured product with the lowest moisture uptake. This may not be that easy and a specialty epoxy coatings formulator is more likely to help with this than your laminating epoxy supplier.

But as apex said this is not necessary as the standard laminating epoxies are fit for purpose.

The second option will cost you nothing and is basically to follow good practice and its not just for epoxy coating but applies to laminating as well.

1. post cure even the so called ambient cure systems even if it is a modest 45'C. OK this may cost a bit but does not have to be significant, we can come back to this if you want.
2. use weight (accurate scales) rather than volume to measure components.
3. talk to your supplier and check that the 2:1 or 5:1 etc ratio you are given is accurate as an example some suppliers will round up 4.7:1 to 5:1 and say this is good enough, a good formulator will tell you up front if it is 4.7 or have made it a true 5:1.
4. thoroughly mix the components

OK before you say this is taken for granted and we all do this, and what has it got to do with improving moisture exclusion properties.

Well by the time you sum up all of the errors, that is the manufacturers batch variability, choice of curing agent, your proportioning of component A&B and lack in thorough mixing its not uncommon to get only 90% conversion efficiency. So even though you have a plastic that is nice and solid you still have 10% of the mass unreacted. This unreacted curing agent and hardener that is dispersed throughout the solid is one thing that influences how water tight the epoxy coating is.
So by providing extra heat you may bump this up to 95%, use of accurate proportioning and mixing may get you to 97%, but it will never be 100%.

Cheers
Andrew

 

Excellent post Andrew, the manufacturing fudge factor was something I was never aware of !
RR

 

Here is a document, unfortunately it is lengthy but worth a scan through.
Neat epoxy (coating 6) was the best, but it will not settle the disagreement, coatings 63, 64, 69 are solvent thinned epoxy paints.

 

the term penetrating epoxy is not used much anymore. "good" wood isn't very porous - that is why they make boats out of it. That is why latex and enamel paints don't soak all the way through the wood and can be surface sanded off.

Adding solvents to epoxies will increase penetration but only a tiny tiny bit. A small bit of solvents added to epoxy is OK , but not much. But do note that there are solvent based epoxies too.

if your solvent (paint thinner etc) will not soak deeply into your piece of wood, why would epoxy cut with some of that solvent soak into any deeper?

most penetrating epoxy etc tests always done with dry sawdust, balsa end grain etc. where even a bit of water will soak in deeply.....

paul oman/progressive epoxy polymers

 

I just got done sealing, or should I say preserving the inside of my outrigger. I diluted the epoxy with a special mix of solvent and applied it to the inside of the plywood. Within 10 minutes the epoxy was observed seeping through the 1/4"(6mm) plywood. In 1 hour the outside was also completely sealed with epoxy..........NOT

Thanks for all your input guys.

 

plywood is even less likely to be 'penetrated' with resin/solvent. The glue layers between the plys are (I assume) waterproof.

 

Right assumption, they are!

Therefore I don´t buy the above "statement" telling us it was seeping through 6mm ply.

That is just not possible.

And I would like to know which "special solvent" this might have been? Sulphuric acid?

 

Hi Apex, by putting NOT at the end of his statement erikhaha is telling us that he is joking. This is current "slang" English usage over here.