economical coastal cruiser

Sorry - bypassed this earlier...
Let's start at the end 1st. I couldn't disagree with you more - the very reason that you engage a professional and go through the proven process is so that you can ensure the you DON'T get the what's already out there in the marketplace (assuming that's not what suits, of course). As far as Bayliner's go, I wasn't tossing out a baited hook... they don't fit with everyone's needs, but they fill their market niche - which is a pretty broad one - very well.

No - I wasn't joking about the 6 foot draft... based on the quoted draft of 550mm (which I agree could be somewhat less towards the transom - though often isn't in slender hullforms) the 900mm prop and the 20% tip clearance (which I'll await for Rick to show any published data to suggest is too much) The draft would indeed be close to 6 feet.

As to the cost of ownership, I have absolutely no doubt that buying a near new - or even new - production boat, like those I mentioned, would be FAR less expensive than having one professionally built to the same standard. Fortunately for the design community, there are enough people out there who are prepared to pay extra to get exactly what they want.
Which sort of brings us full circle..... why go through all the effort to custom build if you aren't going to get what you want? Preparing a detailed SOR won't cost you anything but a bit of time.....

 

Ohhh... we're not back there again are we...? I'm not even going to bother to respond anymore Rick... you simply don't get it....

In an effort to keep this remotely on track, how about we start a thread on that one too...

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/compromise-31901.html

 

Big names in boating (thoses who sell boats in the thousands) have very good marketing dept, very good design offices, and very good production lines. Otherwise they wont stay big names for long and would go bankrupcy rather soon.

Differents approach might be working, but when I see 900 mm prop, I see very high bucks custom made gearbox, or a subscription for frequent use of rescue services.

 

Target? I dealt in facts for the sake of this discussion. A towable and launchable boat at standard boat ramps along the eastern seaboard requires in almost all cases no more than an 8'6" beam with 9'6" and a few inches fudge inches for daylight only towing without escorts and big banners. If you add that to the fact that touring couples need to be able to do this without owning a tractor used for heavy hauling too, the boat has its restrictive perimeters. A 36' power boat using the guildlines for the beam is not avaliable unless you build a "Bolger' type boat. People in the production of power boats do not build boats using these perimeters here in the states.

This also restricts where you take a boat like that in the water also because of its bottom design centered around shallow draft and beam which makes the boat uncomfortable too. If you add this to the requirement and desire to have minimal fuel burn, you need to consider building your own boat because of the costs and materials not normally used in boat unless they are high dollar hulls using high tech materials and construction methods.. All boats are a compromise.
I went with glued lapstrake plywood which is pound for pound the strongest and lightest per square inch with a composite cabin, top, and sandwich bottom of glue and plywood.

 

"I see very high bucks custom made gearbox."

Most V belts are fine when loaded to 10 hp. 4 belts with matching reduction pulleys is hardly that costly.

The flat or Glimmer belts will pass even more HP , but their pulleys are even more expensive.

The question of compromise is best answered with a prioritized list.

Is 12k at 12mpg on top or the hot tub?

To me legally no hassle trailerable would be #1

Efficient (if its worth the extra construction cost of really light).

Common build/ez repair , no Unobtanium engine or other parts.

And the really hard part for this design BEACHABLE .

This common list always seems to lead me back to the Atkin , box keel + reverse deadrise.

FF

 

Oyster... shame on you... compromise...?
And you too FF.... you guys are in real danger of bringing a dose of reality to this scene!
It's important here not to get confused between projects. Sandy (who seems to have vanished...?) is in the US, Brian is looking for something possibly similar for the E. Coast of Oz, where trailering restrictions may be different. For minimum hassle though, I agree a max 2.5m beam (again, for Brian in Oz) is probably a good starting point for one of the items on that list I keep harping on about...

 

Well I have been accused of being a bit "slow". No problem, towing for an inidividual no matter what the beam is, is restricted by the towing vehicle and the prior experiences in doing so unless you do not care about your investment either. 11' beam dictates a special use vehicle and an operator that meets a certain criteria over and above your weekend warrior in almost all cases. Add that to the ramps which is also another fact finding mission before you take the leap, you are surely restricted by no fault of your own.
Oh compromises? Even cruise ships have them too.

 

FF - agree on belts and different size pulleys for required gearing. I'd hope the big prop can be a CPP. Can't see any need for a gearbox at all, but still plan on some kind of clutch!

If the prop is more sensibly a 'standard' size than the as yet nominal 900mm being used as a strating point, or outboard power asserts itself as an obvious choice i don't really mind. I'm just aiming for max efficiency at the start of the optimisation process. If i get to client status i will compromise any any decision i'm involved with (automatically then the optimum - client is always right, refer above) and be pissed about any compromises where i'm bypassed. (sub-optimal situation, unless of course the designer/engineer prefers to retire and not have any clients, when of course its optimal). Oh hell, i'm not getting sucked into this as well am I?

My desire for containerable is so that the SUV/trailer combo only ever does the short hops. Long transits in the container. Thus minimize owner's time with the long trailer on the highways even though it would be legal all hours without flashing lights, escorts etc. Such things as boat overhang behind trailer wheels might make some ramp locations challenging.

Draft of 'my' 2.2m beam is looming as an issue. Obviously the whole shebang will have to be light as possible, but avoid expensive exotic materials.

I'll have to be careful now or i might end up spelling out an SOR, but bear with me a bit. I don't envisage much internal fitout to be frank. From bow - almost certainly v-berth, enclosed head then a largish convertible dinette (total is overnight for 4), and minimalist galley - and thats the saloon, apart from some storage. Galley within the saloon might just be a sink and really usefull amount of bench space. I have a bunch of camping stuff - cooking and 12/240 fridge freezer, plus assorted associated items. When i've previously said i want the lot i was bieng a bit facetious, but with the range of camping gear I've got i'll be pretty comfortable. Its not as light as specialist hiking stuff, but weight/volume considerations are just as relevant for camping trips as they will be for this boat so i think it should be fit for purpose. I'd load just what was needed for the trip each time, not leave it in the boat. This would be as much for durability of non-marinized items as for some weight discipline.

Cooking might get changed from a camping 2 burner LPG unit to a small LPG BBQ unit. Either would preferably stay in the cockpit/helm area except when secure lockup required. I dont want LPG or other highly flamable/explosive stuff inside the saloon, or to bother with plumbing it into place. Needless weight/time/effort. Cockpit to be quite generous in size. Helm area a bit smaller and able to have sufficient weather protection for destination as noted above. Battery bank - yes, will have laptop and some other carry on/carry off electronic items. A little portable genny to top up batteries if required can live in a 'box cum seat' in the cockpit. Probably not even take the genny on short trips.

I don't envisage aircon, but in deference to Sandy's original post, an aftermarket car/truck unit, belt driven compressor on the diesel, might be ok. Tricks here would be to ensure good insulation as part of construction and have a 'proper' door between helm area and saloon. Probably not 'watertight bulkhead' door, but heading that way. Then just cool saloon/v-berth down while motoring. Some required ventilation means things will warm up during night but hopefully nighttime is cooling down anyway and will compensate enough. If anchored and its that damn hot and uncomfortable maybe go home, or have shore power and the capacity to drive compressor electrically as well?

Helm area to have 'runabout style' windscreen with triangular sides, fold flat somehow. A bit trickey with curves but there'll be a solution. GRP hardtop with long posts at rear, short ones to edge of windscreen but leave about 6" gap between top of 'screen and hardtop. The ventilation with that set-up is magic in warm weather. Readily detachable -30 minutes? For poor weather roll down 'clears' from hardtop and zip closed, ditto along the sides.

Now folks from cold weather climates might want a more completely enclosed helm area. It shouldn't be too difficult to design a demountable setup that can be assembled at the ramp, even if time required might then be a couple of hours. For local tralering trips it would be left in place. For longer towing or containerisation, it would come off.

I'd look hard at a pop-up roof over the saloon, a la the caravans of same style. This would give more headroom at anchor. It would block the view out of the windscreen and have to be lowered for transit periods. It would wind up but have gas strut assistance. A good rubber seal on the perimeter, and external catches for secure water tightness when motoring. When the pop-up is lowered, 'headroom' in the saloon would be limited to sitting height only. This configuration helps keep overall CoG as low as possilbe for stability, and and you will realise windage of this boat (assuming you can follow my description) will be pretty low also.

Erik - if there is something you'd want to do different, put it into the mix. We're both thinking broadly the same way i believe? And both thinking of a longer boat then fcfc unless he wants to buy into the containerisation idea. With a few 'semi-clients' input we might be able to get enough of a consensus and clarity of 'brief' that Rick, Will and others can audit for sanity and do-ability.

Brian

 

Again and again and again, no tag price !!!!


For the belt reduction, how do you clutch and go reverse ?

And are you sure the efficiency, price and reliability of a 4 V belt drive (+ clutching system and reversing system) and a big prop will be better than a stock 1:3 proven and available marine transmission with standart shafting and prop ?

If you want to go direct drive where will you find a low power engine revving slow enough to drive directly a prop ?


How do you put a convertible dinnette (for 4) convertible as a double bunk in a boat 2,2m beam (7ft4in)

BTW, where is the engine in your layout ?

Do you expect to have headroom in the head ?

 

Then you are required by the laws of the lowest common denominator which allows for trailering and launching in the particular region of your intended uses. Yes, this also will be compromise from the top end requirements, beam, width, and weight for a 36' long x 11' in beam boat and the required scantlings for the shell and structual intergrity for the boat unless you truely go the highend materials route and the requirements in the form of controlled manufacturing.

 

Here you go Brian. The boat is in the final stage of paint work but has the rigging all roughed in. I am into efficency and with some usefull and previous experiences I have built this one after selling my sharpie=skipjack gaff rigged sailing vessel.

The boat's cabin is sandwich divinicell skinned with white cedar emulating T&G and on the outside its also skinned 1/4" plywood and then glued lap white cedar 1/4" for stability and the wooden planked look and grain texture.

I also rigged a double helm unit for several reasons as we fish and also boat in four seasons climates. I rigged the inside with a RV type galley arrangement for my grandson to sleep which also doubles as a love seat arrangment too for two people to sit inside. The dinnette seating is more than adaquate for another passenger to ride and read with the aft facing seating flipping over to convert to a passenger helm seat arrangement which automatically raises to a nice height for veiwing out the window.

I also built a collapsible bunk that rests on a lip across the dinette arrangment for an additional adult bunk which adds another sleeping quarters along with the double sleeping arrangement foward with no head knocker roof top.

The aft seating also is very comfortable facing foward with tackle center and double sink arrangement on top. So you see I do not need a long and massive cruiser for my intended use along the coastal waters on the east coast and the gulf region. Towing is not an issue and bridges non existant. I have a complete walk around to foward with bulwalks and the trunk also doubles as seating foward with ample leg room to the decking. Wooden teak trim compliments the painted hull. This boat will get a 60 hp if someone wants to purchase the boat but will get a 40 hp. four stroke and 12 gallon tank which gives me more than enough for my intended day trips.
I also incorporated a full size head in the step foward of the dinette which gives you some privacy and storage along the exterior too under the decking with lockers foward also in front of the foward most bulkheads. All of the dinette parts also are convertible so that they can fold up or down which makes easy access to the lockers. If you look closely, the dinette is raised so that passengers can see out of the side windows with the step up deck allowing for double drawers for more storage. This boat for two people has enough room for two weeks of stable goods with perishables in a built in ice box and room for an extreme cooler under the port cockpit seat.

If you also notice, I have built in "ac" in the storage boxes foward of he cabin so that I get air inside in inclement weather when underway. The pipe makes a creative stopwater loop for any spray that may be taken over the bow with caps and flappers inside to close it up.

 

I'm modestly skeptical about the long term sealability of a pop up type structure over the salon. It's hard enough to get hatches and skylights to work in the real world. I'm on the west coast and to me coastal cruising means a bit of green water. Just saying.

 

If you are speaking about the hatch even while replying to Brian's comments, , the intergral workings is not shown in the creative lip which dogs down and seals the lid. I actually used the feature on a working cabin for my sailboat and it never leaked a drop with zero gasketing. I could take the water hose and hit it and I never got a drop inside from around the rim of the curved rooftop.

 

That's cool. I'd love to see some close up pics of a real world installation. I'm not trying to be negative, I just hate leaks.

 

You taper the inside lip and use duct tape along the joint and fill with thickened epoxy. Let dry and then remove and cover with an additional strip of any size which in the case of the hatch I used 5/8". Pick your poison.
I then faced the lip of the roof top and it worked fine. I have this stored on the computer of the roof top but don't have the shots of the steps for the hatch since photobucket updated early this year while I upgraded my computer and mail service and have not been able to refresh my albums. No matter what your shape, you can use this feature and a dog down and its pretty tough to get water to work its magic in spray over the top. Direct spray especially over the top for a simple coastal cruiser? odds are pretty good that this will work. Gaskets age and I have yet been able to depend on them over the long haul. The natural seal when pulled down after creating the custom seal with the uncured glue and then let glue fits everytime seems to work for me. The duct tape allows for spacing for finish paint or gelcoat depending on the choice of topcoat.