Hreko 1000

Welcome mate, you did not miss anything important, just a affirmation of your statement above.

 

I am against banning this thread because the design has several interesting concepts. I for one would like to see them discussed fairly and without the personal remarks.

I understand how we went off course but that's in the past. I suggest that we refrain from humor since there may be language difficulties. Also, when I was at school, a very long time ago, I found that the "he started it" excuse did not impress my teachers so perhaps we can avoid that as well.



Is the transom intended to be open as shown or is that just to make the cockpit arrangement visible? If it is open, there may be safety issues in heavy seas. I don't see the advantage unless there is a purpose such as fishing.

I can see the "A" mast" - first time I have seen it, is it intended to carry carry a large jib? There are two booms that seem to carry two sails in a biplane arrangement. Before we comment, is that correct?

I have always liked twin bilge keels myself, they are ideal for boats that frequently moor in tidal estuaries. However, there is a performance downside to short wide keels. I think pumping ballast water from one keel to the other keel may work for moderate sea conditions, but in a heavy sea perhaps they could be left half-filled. PAR's earlier comment that things happen fast at sea is valid. I know how fast a large-bore siphon can be as I have tried it myself but the pump has to transfer the final 50%.

 

Hreco

Ancient Kayaker, if you read post 6 in this thread ones more, and you see the pictures in thread Hreco- Croatian sailboat (Similar threads, on the bottom of this thread) you will understand much better . It is not complicated at all, just "install some new software" in your thinking patron.

HRECO is one design attempt to find solution with a few given parameters:

1) 2' water draft !!!!!
2) no longer than 32' 9" !!!!
3) as much as possible sun/wind energy production capabilities!!!
4) fast!!
32' air draft!


(If you search >Ljubac Croatia> in Google Maps it will be clear why I want such boat, the yacht port is only four feet deep and Vir bridge only 10 m high)

Once more: This is not performance sailing boat, only because of hull physiognomy!.
So, try to think without lead( HRECO has no lead, HRECO does not want to transport ballast from point A to point B. Me too. I do not want to carry ballast. Whole my life I am straggling not to carry ballast, straggling to be free. I know that I can't be free, but some parts of my life I'll not only walk, I will run. Please continue discussion with breeze up to 35 knots and waves up to 5 feet. Do not start with heavy sea , capsizing and puppet in the sea. This is not natural.
Now, I'll try to answer your questions.

1) RIB dinghy is constructive, integral part of hull. When sailing, dinghy is connected to the boat. Connection is "several tons strong" and can be performed fast and easy. 5 feet long and 5 inches protruding stern ridge(male) comes in the grove in the bottom of RIB (female) . Also two 2 feet long protrusion comes in similar grove aside back part of RIB dinghy.

Once anchored in one bay, you can seat on the back platform ( hatch cover of RIBdinghy) and clean and wash cached fish. Glass of wine you can put left or right, you can choose. You can also take a trip with electric driven dinghy if you want.

3) Standard there is no water in bilge keels! Can be half filled, dependent of sea condition and wind direction. Water shift take place only with motorsailing ( as a principle, beating) and long leg sailing on one side. Otherwise, if you don't feel safe reduce sail area, do not use pumps to play with bilge keel water(fire) and turn your motor on if you have enough fuel. Because of wind turbines, with strong wind you have permanent 2 hp energy. When anchored, 0 to 3000 Lbs water can be used to change boat inertia and reduce hull interference with certain side waves and unpleasant swinging .
To discuss about sailboat stability and say nothing about sail area/rigging is like discuss about wine and not say is it red or white. It is interesting that PAR did not comment anything about HRECO rigging. This is something new for him.

HRECO has the same relative ( not absolute) primary stability as one "classic" sail boat of same length. Because the main component of HRECO's stability is based on catamaran principle, secondary stability is inferior to classic lead keel boats . One positive moment is that such type rig has already about 20 degrees mast/sail inwards inclination and with unintentional gibe boat heeling of 60 degrees reduce wind force on the " windward" sail virtually to zero. About 2000 lbs wholesome ballast under the waterline and the form of boat edge will prevent that boat capsize. I am going to test stability of HRECO model in my bathtub with dynamometer on the top of masts and air/water in bilge keels. If HRECO capsize windward boom can be used as righting lever.
2) now we came to the second issue, strange " A" rigging, nobody dare to discuss about that part of HRECO concept. First I think we should use some new terms in sailing vocabulary. Starboard/port mast/sail, windward/leeward mast/sail ???. It is not complicated at all, is it?. Instead of in line (yawl, ketch,) you have two masts and two booms besides each other. Like God create human on the very image of him, with left and right arm!.( I do not believe in God but it's funny. I mean not believe in God is not funny bat my objection is maybe funny). There are certain advantages of such rigging.(of course some disadvantages, and I should like to let me know).
1) with boat heeling of 15-20 degrees "leeward mast/sail " is perfectly vertical.
2) Both masts can be perfectly curved(outwards banded) to keep sail shape optimal.
3) Favorable condition for downwind sailing with butterfly jibs delta kite lift effect, and low center of effort. (classical spinnaker pull also on top of mast and push bow in the water !!)
4) You can use booms as frame for shadow tent or collect water of rain downfall.
5) If Connect booms with perpendicular pole can be more simple and safe to manage.

6) Your grandchild can use such rigging for swinging.( Smile)
7) Fishing properties
8) Lowering the mast is like playing with crane.

9) With bad sea ( PAR sea condition)and sea sickness you can safe recline and vomit over the windward boom.(Big Grin)

P.S. PAR I know that you were insulted when I said that I can learn you something. Croatian says that human and donkey knows more then human
only.
P.P.S. This bay will be HRECO's resting place and my hut among the olive trees

 

Yeahh, you still do´nt know that you are wrong with the general concept. It is not PAR sea condition a boat has to stand. It is NATURE! And your concept is not able to stand sea conditions, thats the plain truth...............

"Qoute"
P.S. PAR I know that you were insulted when I said that I can learn you something. Croatian says that human and donkey knows more then human" Qoute end"

Be shure neither PAr nor me can learn anything from you, nor (obviously) you can learn from us.
I do´nt want to comment the donkeys part, there are some affinities.

 

"Amazing the ignorance of newbies with a few postings, I doubt you will find further assistance here." (rasorinc 04-19-2009.) So I went to Croatian Nautica -Portal where I got assistance.

 

Nice to notice you found a home for your dreams!

 

It is not a beautiful boat but, as Apex (kind of) said, it is your dream coming true. So good luck and best wishes for the future of this project.

 

Grazie daiquiri,

Ten years from now more than 20 % sailing yachts will use this concept of stability.

 

Well, I like it but I like wacky stuff.

The pool noodle, used it in many of my hovercraft model mock-ups.

The canting dagger keels, again something I plan on my super duper hovercraft - retractable of course.

Old thread on topic:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/stability/lost-power-heavy-seas-hull-shape-20887.html

Build it, sail it, and be happy with it.

 

in your dreams

never

 

Why? I know that I am invalide with communication but it doesn't mean that my concept of stability is invalid.

 

jperkovic,
20% of the sailing yachts will not use your concept of stability ten years from now. By 2020, the large majority of yachts were produced before 2010. Discount those.
Your design adress one of your needs, which is shallow draft. In many places the draft is not a big issue. A heavy deep keel is still a good way to achieve stability, so discount the boats where the draft isn't an issue.
Multihulls also provide stability (at least initial stability). Multihulls also have better performance regarding speed than your design (I think, but more important is that many potential buyers will think so). Discount the market for multihulls.
Your design has not maximised speed performance. Discount the buyers who put a priority to speed.
If you are restricted to traillering width, the flotation devices at the sides take up some of the available width for those who wants a maximised traillerable boat. There goes another part of the market.
I guess you have noted that a lot of boat people are traditionalists. They are not going to turn around in only ten years. Discount the traditionalists.

So even if you would have a brilliant idea to achieve stability for your type of sailing yachts, when you look at the potential market it is very very far from 20% of the total fleet of sailing yachts. It would be a safe bet that less than 20% will use your concept for stability by year 2020, instead of the concepts in use today. I never bet anyway so that is not for me.

I'm not the person to judge your design and has no real opinion on how brilliant it is. I would be surprised if not all of your solutions have already been tested in one way or another sometime by someone. Also good ideas can have been tried and forgotten because the context or the time was not right, so don't let that bother you.

My thoughts on boats goes in a different direction than yours and don't involve sails. You could say that my dream is different from yours, and leisure boats are very much about dreams. Adress the buyers dreams and you have a market whether the choice is rational or not.

Good luck with your boat,

Erik

 

Erik, thanks’ for your good wishes.

I had the same communication problem also with Croatian nautical forum when I wrote “ tipicni krstas” (typical cruiser). No wonder that I have more problem if I have to do it in English. I wrote "sailing yachts" because I got this English translation for nice Dutch word 'toerzeilboot'
When I wrote 20%, I thought about typical 9 -12 m (30-40 foot)sailing boats with Hreko's living space(x m3 ), where you can stay, 5-7 t displacement, 160-210 cm draft, monohull!!!!. Of course, multihull and racing sailboats will not have this concept of stability!!! It should be very strange that catamaran use that concept of stability, also it would be strange to put economic sparing motor in Porsche.
The point is to get rid of thousands tons of lead and to save millions litres of fuel. Probably it would be 20% of 30-40%. It means 6-8 % of “sailing yachts” that you meant and I mentioned. Try to think about percentage of SUV ‘s or Station wagons in auto world.
I am not agree about the speed. This boat will be faster than his 3-4 t heavier twins( typical Scandinavian Segelbat Tour) . A boat with this concept has 1,5 m longer waterline than boats of the same size!.I do not dare to speak about planning( skim) , but who knows, Hreko without batteries and eco component Do not forget this boat should be only 2,5 tons heavy.

Hire some pictures to get impression over submerged part of boat( wet surface)

p.s. Hreko model & concept will be exposed on BOOT Dusseldorf Show
( stand 13 D 29)

 

Erik, makes some excellent points. The major point is that sailboats in general have only 10% of the pleasure craft industry. Of this, you would be very lucky to convince 5%. Put in simple terms, this is 1/2 of a single percent of the pleasure boat market, which frankly isn't enough to get especially excited about. In fact, it such a narrow market focus, it would be very wise if the craft was more "accommodating" of the desires of the typical buyer, other wise you'll lose half of your prospective clients just through pure aesthetic considerations, which is a hell of a price to pay for being different. Enjoy your project, but don't expect to win over any market share with it.

 

Aside from more stability and buoyancy, are there other advantages in adding those side 'bulges'? I assume adding them increases a lot of drag more than an equal volume but normal monohull.