Professional Engineering Licenses for designers in Florida

To all in the state of Florida,

I am the Chair of the Ad Hoc Committee on Professional Engineer (PE) licensing in the state of Florida. This Committee is trying to address the issue of PE licensing that has to potential to put many small craft designers out of business. Right now, if you practice any kind of naval architecture or marine engineering without the PE license, then you could be subject to a $5,000 fine and be ordered to cease and desist practicing.

Our Committee has been working with the Florida Board of Professional Engineers (FBPE) to resolve issues of interpretation of the law and its potential adverse effects on the small craft and recreational businesses in the state of Florida. If we can identify a possible exemption from licensure for certain practitioners, we may be able to change the PE licensing laws in favor of small craft and recreational craft designers and engineers, but without adverse effects to those that want and need the PE license.

While naval architects, marine engineers, and small craft designers are the most affected, this law as it currently stands may also apply to boat repair yards, sail lofts, rigging companies, and anyone that gets involved in repairing boats. If not addressed, your businesses may be forced to seek out PE licensed individuals, at their appropriate fees, to create design details, make decisions, and stamp appropriate plans and specifications with a PE stamp. In the Committee's opinion, this places an unfair and uneconomic burden on marine businesses of many types.

Our Committee has written a document that completely explains the situation. It includes four possible solutions that could be implemented to correct this situation. Also included is a one-page response form that asks you to rate which proposals you would like to see implemented.

Please email me directly at ewsponberg@se.rr.com to obtain a free copy of this document, in Microsoft Word, and I will send it to you. We need to receive responses back by snail mail or fax by 24 November. The address and phone numbers are included in the document.

If we are successful in changing the law appropriately, there is a strong chance that our efforts will be used by other states as a precedent.

Thank you for your interest and consideration, and I look forward to hearing from you.

Eric

 

Thank God we only have the EU to deal with!

 

Soren,

Well, I have heard that other nations in the EU are considering some form of licensing, and they are watching what happens in the US. We have a difficult situation in that all our separate states have their own laws, and there is little universality across the nation. Other countries, on the other hand, have national licenses, which makes it much easier to deal with.

By the way, I sent you a copy of the Powerpoint presentations on our Keels and Rudder talk at IBEX. Expect it in the mail in a few days.

Eric

 

Honestly...

Hello...

Knowing the broad affect of newly introduced legislation that has not been hammered out in public preliminaries - I would still like to say - it is about time...

Not that my opinion matters much - but a definite distinction and a proper registered body of professionals makes a lot more sense to me against the extremely loose grouping of same and 'the guy who has been doing it for 20 years' - and his opinion - and the all too real picture of where the liability exists as he picks up a Dewalt with a diamond wheel on it and starts cutting holes where he 'knows' they should go...

You cannot sell services to clients who are forking out in the 10's to 100's of thousands of dollars or crowns - without regulatory bodies...

Yes it will lead to problems and grumblings at its onset - but it can be ammended on a per case basis and refined - you can't fine a kid or other for suggesting a modification to his friends 505 that sends them both turtle - but on the larger scale there does need to be 'something'...

This reminds me of the contractor (sinking houses - leaky condo renovations) going on just now in Vancouver....

I am for it - I recognize the immediate pitfalls - but it is something that needs to be done - yet it needs ammendment clauses...

OK - I just put on a forward ventilated 10/7 on my Evinrude and I did not expect so much 'back bite' - that's why I parked STB of a piliing where no one else wants to moor - off topic...

It is like all things - scary at first - but if provision is made for public input per what you have just done - it is ultimately is a good thing - until it becomes just another disguised tax...

SH.

This post mya contain typing erros and that is because I did not call my AA 'buddie' - oh here he is just now...

 

There is something in the works that may come to pass to offer a certification for small craft designers that is easier to pass than having a college degree and having to pass two rigorous 8-hour exams. I cannot offer much information because it is in the planning stages, but it hopefully will become known within the next year. I am sure there will be posting on this forum with more details in due course. I am not sure what the requirements would be, but there is talk of granting existing practitioners of good reput a certificate based on their experience. New practitioners would have to pass some kind of review, and perhaps an examination of some sort. Stay posted.

Eric

 

One more thing: If anyone anywhere--other states, other countries--would like a copy of our proposals, I would be happy to email you our document that describes the PE situation entirely. Just email me at ewsponberg@se.rr.com, and I will send it to you by return email.

Eric

 

I am often alarmed at the poor structural design practices evident in some designs.

It seems to me that a good thorough and compehensive scantlings and construction rule should be adhered to, and that the basic principals of naval architecture should be demonstrable to some authority before you can hang out your shingle as a designer

Historically most succesfull yacht designers have just a design office background with no formal qualifications whatsoever.
Legislation needs to tread a carefull path between killing off the unqualified genius and allowing fools to sell designs for dangerous boats.

 

Question...

Hello...

I have been one of those fools (I would prefer unqualified genius - but I won't try for that today) since I was about nine years old - but I have yet to sell any of my 'doodles' to any one stupid enough to go and build them other than myself - and that is a good thing...

Thing is though - how would this proposed legislation take into account recognized (other state) colleges or university papers - say Westlawn in Connecticut (I think) or other same 'institutions of 'smallcraft design' - or say all the various 'short courses' along the US East seaboard and perhaps same on the West coasts...

If Florida wants to set the standard it would be good for any kid (or other) who wants to design boats to know what levels he or she should be moving towards...

For now I will just continue doodling and mucking about...

What thoughts...

SH.

 

The PE licensing authorities will officially ignore the students from Westlawn and The Landing School, but our Ad Hoc Committee has made the effort to inform the Florida Board of Professional Engineers (FBPE) that these schools exist and are thriving. Many businesses hire these individuals, and they can work without the PE license in most circumstances. Offically, now, they cannot work independently as consulting designers, but the boards of professional engineers is simply ignoring them for the time being.

I mentioned the effort for independent certification of designers. This is directed toward exactly those students, graduates, and currently practicing designers who do not have a college engineering degree but who are nonetheless talented and responsible people. So more information will be coming down the pike in due course.

In the meantime, please request our document for free by emailing me at ewsponberg@se.rr.com, and if you cannot use it yourself, please forward it onto anyone whom you think might be interested. The more people that know what we are doing, the better of the industry and our efforts will be. We need LOTS of people to respond so that we can show the FBPE that we have industry support. This is critically important.

Thank you.

Eric

 

I would suggest that this independent certification be voluntary and industry recognized rather than trying to get it in law. Trying to pass a whole new concept for mandatory licensure might be really hard, (and developing the test, etc.) and then you will just move the line for the fight over regulation to a different level (and then you will be the bad guys).

Also Westlawn, and now ABYC, as training providers, are no longer neutral third parties, and have a conflict of interests, so they cannot be a certifying organization.

Just formalize what is now precedent.

Also, FL has an industrial exemption, so repairers, builders, etc. of any sort of vessel aren't required to be licensed.

 

CDBARRY,
Could you expand upon the FL. "industrial exemption", and perhaps Eric, you could clairify this. Thanks, John.

 

Eric & Chris,

Granted that some sort of professional licensure at some level is probably useful to the general public, I would like to know the rationalle behind such broad rule making as Florida seems to be working on. Are there statistics that say that legislation is needed? Is this another solution looking for a problem?

In other situations like structures for building, many businesses have a PE on their letterhead but none in residence. One assumes that the PE gets some renumeration for his services but does he actually get very involved? My own house contains floor trusses designed and built by such a firm. The PE never did any work on them and apparently never even saw the specifications. In the event, I had to go back to them to get oversights corrected although I provided them with all loading numbers and a stick model of the house. I asked to speak with the PE but was denied contact.

Point is, what good did the requirement for a licensed PE do for me? In a couple of cases, to get approval of the building inspector, I had to get a PE to sign off on some fixes that I built on site. I designed them, he signed a drawing. Perhaps there is nothing wrong with the law but the implementation left a lot to be desired. I would expect no better results from the drive to license yacht designers and much creativity would surely be lost.

 

I too am wondering about a run of poorly designed yachts, by less then qualified folks, cropping up on insurance agents desks as the need for such a law?

Frankly, these types of regulations produce nothing more then good study habits from those required to pass an exam. I'm reminded of the response Ted Brewer made in the "Letters" section of WoodenBoat magazine a few years ago. Are we to make excuses for design work done by people without the NE.

Clearly, some of the finest yachts, racers and America's Cup defenders/challengers have come from the boards of those of this lesser breed. We can not discount the work done and time proven, just the work to come in the future?

I have not been contacted by any FL agency in regard to this, and now am afraid I will be with this post. Keep swinging Eric, I look forward to your email.

 

First, the industrial exemption. As stated in my PE document, the industrial exemption is an old, old exemptioin that says any company that is building a product for sale to the public does not have to be licensed by a PE, or have a PE on staff. The reasoning is that the consumer is protected by product liability laws and insurance, so that pre-empts the need for a PE. You can expect that the industrial exemption is here to stay and will not be rescinded. It applies in all 55 states and jurisdictions (including territories) where the US form of PE licensing is in effect. Many countries around the world have some form of PE licensing, although they may call it different names. In England, for example, it is called Chartered Engineer, or CEng. for short. I am a CEng. in the UK, and have been for about 30 years.

PE licensing was originally developed to provide the public from protection against unscrupulous and unqualified designers and engineers. That is, it applies primarily to the consultants who provide a service and not to a product.

The broad rule making in Florida is actually already in place. The PE laws have existed for decades. The FBPE's mission is to interpret the existing law. If you don't like the law, then change it. That is what we are faced with with regard to naval architects and marine engineers. A few years ago, aerospace designers and engineers--those working at the Kennedy Space Center--were able to get passed a blanket exemption for their practices. Automobile engineers do not have to be licensed. In fact, moveable vehicles are a special class of engineering because the vehicle may or may not be built and operated in the state where it resides or travels. The state really does not have any jurisdiction over moveable vehicles, including boats, once the vehicle leaves the state.

The problem has come up, however, with regard to naval architects and marine engineers. The US Coast Guard treats boat and ship plans, submitted for review and approval, favorably if they are stamped with a PE stamp. No criteria were available for naval architecture and marine engineering PEs, so SNAME created one. Unfortunately, it had blinders on with respect to the small craft community where the practitioners are, by a large majority, talented, experienced, and responsible people, but without a college degree or license. Yes, there are some jerks out there who don't know an anchor from an anvil, but they are few and far between. There is not current need or problem in boat design that has to be addressed by PE licensing. The business works just fine, thank you very much.

Florida has very strict engineering laws, and the FBPE interprets them to the letter. That is their mission. I personally think that the original authors of the laws engaged in what I call guild protectionism. That is, the laws are written to DISCOURAGE the practice of engineering, not ENCOURAGE the practice. It is extremely difficult to transfer a PE license into this state, for example. My PE from Connecticut will not easily transfer--I would have had to practice in the other state for 20 years, and been licensed for 15 years before I could transfer it here to Florida. That is a nasty rule. Our NAME PE is only 5 years old. If I waited 15 years, (and I never practiced in Connecticut) I will be retired by then. I have to work somehow to pay for food and my home.

You don't really have to worry about being contacted by the FBPE. They are not in the business of witch hunts to see who is licensed and who is not. They don't have the mission nor the manpower to do that. They can only respond to complaints. If someone does complain about you being not licensed, you will have to respond to the board, and maybe make an appearance. That will be troublesome. Unfortunately, we do know of one naval archtiecture firm here in Florida that is filing complaints, not for negligence, but for being unfair competition because they are attracting business without the license. Those are nuisance complaints, and there is not much we can do about them. But the FBPE knows that we are trying to define the playing field with regard to small craft designers, and I think they will hold off on much action until our work is done.

The purpose of my document that I want to send to everyone is to get as much public support as possible for our suggested exemptions that we would like to get passed through the legislature and made into law. We have representatives and senators waiting in the wings to jump on this as soon as we have a consensus of which way we want to go. That's where all of you come in. Request my document, which explains the whole situation, and give me your response by email or fax. I make four different proposals for exemptions, and I want to know what the boat and ship design and building community would like to see get implemented. You can get a copy of it from me if you email me at ewsponberg@se.rr.com.

Thank you for your support.

Eric

 

Another aspect of industrial exemption is also that movable items (especially boats, which are specifically federally exempted) for sale are in interstate commerce, and the states are pre-empted from regulation of interstate commerce under the Constitution, so they cannot regulate boats per se (and you can bet such a fundamental Constitutional matter won't change). Other Supreme Court rulings hold that the federal government is prohibited from controlling most professions, specifically including engineering under the separation of power clause.

I also think its pretty clear that yacht design isn't engineering, and a court would so hold, based on numerous precedents both in other disciplines and specifically in naval architecture (in Washington). Remember, deciding the matter is not up to the board, it's up to a court.

Finally, it wasn't a matter that there was no criteria for licensing NAs, but no nationally recognized exam, so people who wanted a PE either had to get examined in another discipline or in Washington (mainly by accident, I ended up doing both). So SNAME wrote an exam, which NCEES accepted as a standardized test, to make it more convenient for people who needed licenses (for a lot of reasons, few of them having anything to do with state boards) to get them.

Now, states that have a general (non discipline) license can license people as "generic" engineers based on passing an exam in NAME, but the states are using their own other criteria, such as education. SNAME has nothing to do with that. SNAME also has exactly zero say so regarding enforcement or definition of any state laws, if only because you can't get an organization to testify in court, just individual human beings.

Those few states (CA, WA, OR, RI and a few others) that have specific disciplines within engineering would have to write a statute recognizing NAME as a discipline. None have written any new laws, and no one has made any effort to get them to do so (OR and WA have had NAME since before WWII).