hi everyone,i want to try and build a yacht

apex1,that reads like sound advice,appreciate it.im not opposed to any building methods especially if it saves money and maintenance time.will get reading up on modern wood epoxy building methods.in respect to buying a second hand boat,firstly we have driven hundreds of miles and spent a very long time on the web over months and months of searching for a used boat and we still cant find exactly what we want.call me fussy but if we are gonna spend what is a lot of money to us on a boat to get us around the world i want it to be the right one! yes we could go for a grp boat at a fraction of the price but i cant find the same sort of soul in a grp as i can with wood.im not disrespecting grp boats either.lets face it,if it wasnt for them we wouldnt have so many people in the world enjoying sailing like all of us do on our beautiful oceans and at the end of the day thats what its all about-getting out on the water.
but we have looked high and low and we figure now instead of waiting around for it to appear in front of us we are gonna start working out what it would cost and take to do to get what we want made from scratch.in my view its worth the time spent.also im speculating that if we do go ahead with a new build then if or when there comes a day when we come to sell it ourselves,i'd rather be in a position of selling a decade old wooden blue water boat with its history and character than a grp boat with a lot more miles on the clock and up against the many more thousands of grp boats out there on the market for sale.personally id be quite happy to find some island somewhere in the middle of the ocean with a nice beach and a sweet surf spot and have a family and not come back.hahahahahaha.thats the pipe dream.so will take your advice apex1 regarding plans first then boatyard.was thinking about going for and ali mast instead of wood?any thoughts on that anyone?

 

Aluminum masts are fine. They are noisier, but most people are used to it now.

 

If you will find the place for construction, you can build a carbon mast by yourself.
There is nothing complicated . The mast will be stronger and it won't be more expensive.
And what satisfaction.

 

Hi Sunny,

I think I got you right (and have no prob. to understand some dreaming).
First I must confess, I looked up your favourite designer and learned how old the designs are. So most likely that guy is not longer amongst us.
When you use the search function of the Forum you should find a lot of recommendations on designers / NA´s for "classic" sailing boats. Choose your favourite and come back here to discuss others experiences.
Than you might find it worth to have some further conversation on the yard issue. It is unlikely you find a yard in W. Europe to fulfill your "Book of Requirements" in the given budget. Assuming we are talking about a "ready to circumnavigate" boat. That of course is way above the average serial or custom built.
When it comes to wood epoxy, you can find some yards in South East Asia, but thats quite inconvenient to travel and not easy to supervise or control.
Turkey is the place where I have my yards / shops and where I produce in wood epoxy mainly. Though (as mentioned) I do not build sailing boats, I know of course who might be the right building partner for you. Do´nt hesitate to ask me.
When in doubt about the quality, have a look at my Gallery and take a deep breath. Then know that Turkey is (by numbers) the largest boatbuilding nation in the world! And by quality, between not the worst and high class. Maltese Falcon was completely built in Istanbul. (in my backyard in fact)
When a metal boat is the choice, other factors come into the play and several other countries have some advantage too.

If you can stomach a Alu "Palm" on a wooden boat, that is the cheapest choice sure. But from a technical point of view, a "built" wooden one can be a good choice too (maybe fibre reinforced). As everything in our world, it depends. If its a boat, its a compromise! If it´s no compromise it will not sail.

Make Toot when you need more.

Regards
Richard

 

richard,you weren't messing around when you told me you build boats.checked out your gallery and was very impressed!especially with the finish on the interiors.lovely.
been reading up a little on wood epoxy hulls and it definately sounds like the way forward.the west system seems good.what do you think about using cold molding for the hull?
from where im sitting it seems to be all positives and no negatives for creating the hull in this type of construction.whats the pay-off?? ...is this type of laminated construction similar to a composite hull or is this actually what a composite hull is? and what would be the time scale on building a 45ft hull this way? off now to pour through boat designs.oh yeah-whats an alu 'palm'? guessing its a type of aluminium mast?? was contemplating a carbon fibre mast like szkutnik suggested.thanks again for everyones replies.cool forum.

 

Nice to hear you enjoyed it.

Yes wood epoxy is referred to as a composite method, but here we use the term composite mainly meaning fibre / resin layups of the different sorts.

What you have seen in my Gallery IS cold moulding in most cases. Some of the smaller boats are traditionally built and glassfibre sheathed in and outside.
For your boat I would recommend a combination of strip planking and cold moulding, as we do it on the larger models from about 70 to 105 ft.
The strip planking methods (there are several varieties) are much faster than the plain cold M. method. And a strip planked hull in itself is already a strong an rigid monocoque. Many designers provide well proven plans for strip planking.

The drawback of a wood epoxy hull is that it is almost as vulnerable as a GRP hull when it comes to a contact with a reef, container and the like. A metal boat is more forgiving when you hammer on a reef for half a day.
Although that is not "the art of sailing" it happens, no doubt.
The next point to take into account is the quality of the build. As with a GRP layup the yard can do a shabby job which is impossible to control when finished. Though you will have less structural issues with a weak wood epoxy built than with a screwed glass layup or (worse) a imperfect done foam core. The former will just soak water, which is obvious and can be corrected if you´re happy.
The latter cases become obvious when your bum gets wet in a force ten night half way between Galapagos and Ushuaia.
But a metal boat can fall apart too, when the design was faulty and / or the yard was. Though, as mentioned above, metal is a bit more forgiving.

The maintenance effort of a good wood epoxy boat is equal or below that of a GRP boat. (this statement will sure be contradicted within the next ten minutes. As sure, I will not react on it, I know how my boats perform, and they do much better than the premium brand GRP boats)
But of course a modern steel boat does´nt have too serious maintenace issues either, a Alu built even less.

But you asked for wood, so lets focus on wood.
A strip planked hull of 45ft will need about the same time as a steel hull, when done by skilled shipwrights doing that daily. A yard not so firm with that method will need quite a bit longer than a steel hull would require. My favourite strip / veneer / glass method needs about twice the time of a steel hull. But that hull is substantially stronger and lighter than the steel one.

The "Palm" or Palm tree is the mast yes.
I do´nt know about szkutniks abilities, and do´nt want to guess. In the western countries a carbon mast will cost you several times the amount of a alu mast. Assuming a quality worth to entrust your life in. A segment build wooden mast will be about 50% above the alu one. That depends much on the skills of the yard, some ca´nt do it even for three times the money.

If you like, come here to Istanbul for three days or so, I´ll show you more than 100 yards and boatshops of each and every kind and quality, within a walk of ten minutes. And apart from your plans and dreams, just to see that, is worth a journey when one is interested in boatbuilding. And it is quite possible you´ll find the right place, the right people to build yours.

Be assured, I have no personal or financial interest, or ask here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/ma...e-winter-storage-more-29767-2.html#post308823

edited:
let me add some links to designers and designs worth to look at:

http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/sophiachristina.htm
Ted Brewer, well known, proven designs alltime classics.
http://www.skirayachtdesign.com/
Daniel Skira, supportive man, quite unique boats, all hand drawn, designed for strip planking.
http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/saildesign.html
Ed Burnett, in GB a sort of icon, not cheap.
http://www.stadtdesign.com/products/stock.htm
Van de Stadt, probably the most detailed plans and easiest to build yachts, for your builder.

This list of course, is just a fraction of what is at the market. But bear in mind that a completely custom designed boat will cost you a min. of 30.000€ to 40.000€ upfront, for the plans only!
The designers above will charge you less than 10% of that for their stock plans. There still are ways to "customize" these plans without sacrificing the advantages of the given design. And within a reasonable range of cost.

Would be nice btw. to have your mail adress.

best regards
Richard

 

To be more precised: building carbon mast, you will spend for materials as much as for ready alu mast.
If self building can be a fan and satisfactio for you than go on and don't count your time.
Self made carbon mast will be strong but carbon fiber wil not go as perfect as the factory made. You will need paint the mast and nobody will see the carbon. Selden carbon mast are varnish ,and they look like they are HI-TECH.
On oldtimer ,white painted carbon mast will look better than alu.

Richard, this time i agree with you in100 %

 

And have a look here too:

http://www.spauldingcenter.org/boatfinder/2008/10/19/60-foot-1992-shpountz-schooner-for-sale/

http://www.boatmatch.com/boat-for-sale.php?boat=1319

The first one is on the market for a long time now and I´m quite sure he will sell for almost any amount.
The second one is quite a bit smaller, but may fit you though.

http://www.classic-yacht-design.com/1intro/intro.html
Their homepage.

New built, the smaller one would come out at around 800.000€ the larger substantially above 1,2 million

 

It is quite a nice size yacht you want, and you are ready to give money and time to have your dream come true.
Just an opinion: the mast, definitively of wood.
Now for a practicality and for you to be on a safe side, and have your boat on budget and on time, I will rely on a very professional project manager.
Without discussing anything with him and on my own I will suggest you get seriously in touch with Apex1 Richard. If somebody can realy help you from start to finish it's him. I tell you why: He will represent your interest with profesionalism knowing the finance and the boatbuilding from a long time and having long line of boat built under his watch and organisation.
The naval architect is only part of the process, the yard also, but the whole organisation, the back office sytem, the management of the money, the buying procedure, the respect of the contract and all that can be quite overwhelming and can end up with bad surprise. I saw to often boat doubling the price at launching time. You need some one on your side only, and also a manager of experience can take care of the conflicts.

And the launching is a great party without surprise.
Happy sailing
Cheers
Daniel

 

A very important point you have there Daniel!
A independant project management is as important than a good design or yard! And if there is one honest, independent, and professionel for this project, that is Richard for sure.
Did you notice he made a survey for free for a young Turk?http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/ma...e-winter-storage-more-29767-2.html#post308823
If he is interested in a project, or thrilled, sunnysideup can smile and maybe get a boat done for 70% of the value.

sunnysideup, I will not recommend a boatyard in Europe. When you calculate the wages in Great Britain with only €25 per hour, that is low, and in Turky with 8,50, that is normal, you have then a difference of nearly €100.000, when the manhours are 6000 for such boat.
And they can make perfect boats in Turky. Jo, some rubbish also, but not when the Patron manages it.:!:

Greetings from Sevastopol
Sasha

 

Well,
I´m happy to notice, that someone thinks I am not a completely useless bum.

But both of you, the Sibiriak, and the Northern light, are not much too mousy to give my time away for free, are you?

We cannot even call this a real project, but you have already the right project manager?

First let us know which way to go, then we will see. And (no offense given sunny), let me know if I like the project AND the people first.

Boatbuilding on a professional level has no "sunny side up", as both of you know. Only compromises. And a good compromise is the one hurting all parties! ALL...

So, one should feel confident to stand unenjoyable facts (compromises) when served in a frank manner. Without a personal contact that is´nt to achieve.

Though it was quite flattering waving my flag, this time I´ll give you just a
"5, sit down".......

Regards
Richard

 

Sunnysideup,
How nice that your thread here has really taken off and you've received a lot of great advice.
I would like to suggest that you consider a smaller boat, somewhere in the 30 foot range, maybe a little more. A boat of this size can be an excellent choice for voyages anywhere. As a boatbuilder I can tell you that a 30 footer can be built in about a year by one man. A 42 footer might take 3 or 4 years. A 30 footer might only take a quart of antifouling at haulout time; a 42 footer about a gallon. Also, when the boat is ready to launch you will likely have a considerable amount of your cash left so you can go voyaging.
As has been said before, there are so many boats available at bargain prices nowadays that you can surely buy one and be out voyaging for an even longer time on your budget.
I will mention that I have become a big fan of CURLEW a Falmouth Quay Punt which is only 28 feet on deck. Google it, I think you will get a hit.

 

This is what Sunyside proposed:

"42ft,wide beamed-13ft/4m,draft-6ft 10 inch/2.1m?? full length keel for blue water cruising,bermudan rigged,aluminium mast,aft cockpit with wheel for steering,wooden doghouse down to an open galley kitchen,4 berths(one double and two singles and toilet."

You propose half the size (in volume) which will be impossible to incorporate his specs. Now you are right for the Curley, its a good boat, but I prefer to ride a bad storm on a 40' than a 28'. Commun sense, if I had the choice, I will go for the larger boat. (relatively more comfortable motion) and to not forget the privecy you can't have on a Curley, but you can have in a 40'
As for the building time, this is difficult to assesse. You said 3 or 4 years for a 40'? and a 30' one year one man?. The discrepency do not adds up, sorry.
As for the antifouling paint, it is I must say a very bizarre way to discuss different class of boat. What about the top coat (ok just kidding)
As for the budget, I will let the owner decide.
But as always a good discussion is welcome, and even if I disagree with you, thanks.
Cheers
Daniel

 

The reason classical methods have given way to modern methods is that people found cheaper, better and stronger ways to do things. You can build classical looking vessels using modern methods and materials, having a safer and stronger product for less dinero.

 

Hey Gilbert what about reading a thred before making funny comments?

As a boatbuilder I can tell YOU, that was nonsense what you say there. One man can never build a 30 foot boat himself in one year. Not such a ocean going boat, not a amateur. And sure not you either.
A Falmouth Quay Punt is your recommended boat? Good expert I must say...

Better leave it to the professionals like Daniel and Richard to tell this member.

Sasha