Just a thought

I think this is where it has been developed to the extreme:

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99253

 

LOL! YUP, he should have left it a 1 story but momma wanted more room.
Gary

 

ditto

 

I´m not surprised that you experinced NA´s see CAD as tools, we do too in our business. The problem might be..if you start with powerful tools..and a lack of understanding of why the tools were created.

And Maine I agree, it´s an interesting experience to do it all by yourself, and I´m following your project here.
You scared me though...yes I wrote those lines you quoted..."who needs Par etc etc.." but taken out of context it sounded very rude...that was not my intention. My excuses gents.

And apex, your comment on "Grass Valley" was noted.. ;-)....some good stuff at that time though...still use some of them...mostly the early Allison stuff

And tkk thanx..interesting, funny...but at the same time very sad (and an ugly looking boat, my personal opinion).

I also looked at the "why" concept....and the question is "why"...another web-page built on rendering..CAD-stuff..does it exist or is it only in computers?

Maybe my point was who can you trust...in a world where all presentations are the size of your screen.

Olle

rgds

 

I've gone through the slide rule to calculator and hand drawn to computer transitions and it's still the same skill sets, with some new ones tossed in as adaptations to different tools.

Just because the T square has been replaced with a computer screen doesn't mean you have don't to know how and why to use them. Software can help, but can't hold your hand through the design process.

Software has done a number of things, but it hasn't removed the brain from the formula. What it does well is offer drawing regeneration and numerical crunching, what it doesn't is tell you why one shape is so much superior then another. It also doesn't make conceptual drawing any easier, in fact I find it harder then hand drawing, particularly certain shapes. For example, I know many designers (myself included) hand draw plank laps, because the screen images are just too small to effectively portray the "sweeps" satisfactorily.

These are just different tools and Jim Bob the local skiff designer can have his pet projects for those too cheap or foolish to buy real plans, but it will not affect the market one bit. Once someone is about to spend more then a few grand on boat materials, they'll insist on real plans.

For what it's worth, most have grown past the notebook on the desk with images of a client's new yacht in 3D prettyness. It's much easier to sell a client, with 36" x 24" sheets of their dream yacht that they can touch and take with them, to get coffee stains on the following morning, as they ponder moving the head aft a little.

 

"as they ponder moving the head aft a little"......

now PAR, that was just naughty......

 

This guy had a PC but maybe nothing else. Free is free! ;-)
http://www.steel-yacht.com/pdf/project.pdf
Gary

 

Gary, you gotta love sheet 12 "Destructive Forces" with the different font sizes according to how big the force oughtta be CE Cat A, yep, no prob
Seriously, like, wtf mates?

 

I thought i would see how the thread goes first before i chip in my tuppence penny worth

"..Is there a risc that powerful CAD in the hands of too many with too little basic experience and knowledge will erode the importance of a NA´s knowledge..."

Simple answer no. BUT and it is a real big but, which has been touched upon by many above. The software is just a tool, nothing else.
Ask a carpenter would he use a hammer to cut wood...er...nope...why, wrong tool. Doesn't mean it can't or wont do the job, it is just not the right tool for the job. The hammer will make two pieces, but not a clean cut nor accurate either.
Secondly once selected the saw, can i use it as efficiently or expertly as a skilled carpenter...er..nope. Takes years of training and knowledge of woods, grains, joints and ..well, just doing it many many times.

But and here is the rub. Anyone can pick up a saw and anyone can pick up a saw and cut wood with it too. Does that make me, or them, automatically an expert carpenter (or shipwright) just because i can pick it up..hold it...align it on the wood drive it back and forth to produce a cut?

Well, it seems that many dabblers and amateurs pick up these wonderful "glossy" looking softwares with fancy looking graphs and pretty colour pictures to represent...er...um...well,...you now..er...um...(the how and the why is suddenly missing!!), once used they seem to think it makes them an expert naval architect.....go figure!

My best mate who does, well used to, do a lot of mountain climbing. He said to me once, there difference between a professional mountaineer and an amateur is the professional knows when to stop and turn back. The amateur foolishly keeps going. The professional knows what the limits are and the consequences..

The same is true with software. Amateurs believe the output, never question it, they do not have the prerequisite knowledge to do so....i can pick it up (just like the saw)..ergo i am a designer!

One can never replace knowledge/skill/experience....a computer program doesn't give you this, it just makes your 'amateur design' a lot quicker, not necessarily better. It may plug some of those large gaps in ones knowledge, a bit, but a single rose doesn't make a summer!

Anyone at home making a book case will be proud of their achievement, and the saving of money. It may not be perfect, but it does the job. So why is this same pragmatic attitude not taken in boat design/naval architecture?

I'm all for anyone having a go, in whatever capacity (dabbling fuels the interest and enthusiasms)...software does indeed help in this regard. But why should it suddenly equate to, after putting up a shelf in the kitchen, "this is easy, I know what i am doing now, and i must be a skilled carpenter". Hence, how many say, i'll give up my day job because i can do this just as good as anyone else, if not better, after their first 'play' with the software?......go figure!

PS..
Here is a classic example:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/stability/metacentric-height-free-ship-michlet-15582.html
an amateur using software beyond his knowledge. Yet not soon after finds the same person debating the aspects of stability, as if an expert, to others. Dangerous! Go figure...

 

hmmmmmm, from all this I gather that a boat will surely capsize unless some expert does stability calculations for it. Tell me this, how does the boat know whether or not an expert has done those calculations?

 

Gilbert
"..from all this I gather that a boat will surely capsize unless some expert does stability calculations for it.."

How do you draw those conclusions?..What is the cause of the capsize?

 

sorry to say this, to run any soft ware people need enough idea regarding the software and ship parameters , the software do not blindly give you results unless you work on it, for any input that you give needs a well experience, we need people not the soft ware which even give us wrong answers if the a small information is wrong.......

 

Sorry, sometimes I just feel a little irreverent when the experts pontificate a little more than is necessary. I don't mean to offend anyone. I thought my comment would bring a little smile to some. As, for example, how many of the boats in the history of the world have had any stability computations done on them?
And maybe my sense of humor doesn't fit very well on a forum at times.

 

Gilbert
I learnt a long time ago, humour doesn't travel well on the web. Different cultures and nationalities etc, we all read into those same words, different meanings. And how does one know if i am smiling as i write it? Unless you know the culture and nationality..it rarely travels.

As for:
"..I just feel a little irreverent when the experts pontificate a little more than is necessary.."

I think you're missing the point then. No one here is to preach or to condescended. The thread is about separating the issue of anyone using software's. As i noted in my post above, just because i can pick up a saw, does it make me a skilled shipwright or carpenter?

The pontification is misunderstood, generally i have to say, by those that do not fully appreciate the implications/consequences. This can of course sound arrogant and like pontification..but taking stability for example, this is serious. It can involve people's lives, negligence from an amateur who's only defence is, in a court case to estbalish the facts is....well that's what the computer told me...doesn't help those that have lost lives at sea!

 

As a sort of conclusion I guess most of us here will agree that we can answer the original question:

with a clear NO!

Richard