An ideal small affordable motorsailer

It would appear that there is a good market for a truly ocean capable motorsailer that is economical under power and has good sailing qualities. Such a motorsailer would probably have only one control station in the pilothouse, have a Yanmar single cylinder engine and about a 20 gallon fuel capacity. As a prelimianry concept, the Pacific Seacraft Flicka has almost all of the desired qualities sans pilothouse and helm steering. Both are easy to modify without sacrificing performance. Pictured is a small vessel in the 20 to 22 foot range that would be equipped with enclosed head, complete galley with Adler-Barbour refrigeration as well as sufficient battery power and either solar panels or wind generator. Not a firm believer in quarter berths, I would enclose this are for a hanging locker and drawer storage space with watermaker under for long voyages. Flickas are seen all over the world and have made quite a few trans-ocean passages. Any thoughts on the matter would be helpful in that we plan on modifying a Flicka after our 30 foot S2 center cockpit is sold. The boat will be ideal for long distance exploration.

 

Here you have the picture of an small motorsailer, the well known Hardy 21, just to figure out the effect of a pilothouse for that size of boat.
There's also the Swing Ranger 22, the Heather, the Cox 22, the Krammer 70...etc as other examples to look at. Visit http://www.xente.mundo-r.com/motorsailers/monohulls.htm
By the way, is this Hardy 21 anchored or motorsailing...?
Cheers.
Guillermo.

 

Small motorsailers

I've looked at the Swin Ranger, Hardy 18 and 21 as well as Colvic watson and IP23, but they are all on the other side of the pond in the UK. While very popular cruisers, no one in the US is building them. I feel the market would be strong here.

 

Sorry for digging up & restarting this old thread but would appreciate any updates on this topic. Would especially like to know if anyone is still building quality small motorsailers/pocket cruisers (no MacGregor 26 or Hunter Edges). Am considering a used Flicka and really like the Hardy 21s (which seem to be only available in the UK) but not crazy about buying a 20-30 year old boat. Thanks for any input and please excuse any missteps as this is my first post.

 

What sort of things have you heard about say the Macgregors that put you off ?

Mr McG mustg have been getting sick of the namby-pamby reputation of his boat, because he has a whole "rough weather" section on his web site now.

After having recently seen the new model (and previously owned the older model) , I think they have made a much, much better boat than the previous two models, both in looks and performance.

 

Thanks for the reply. My brothers bought a new MacGregor 26 a couple of years ago and the interior construction was pretty flimsy (similar to Bayliner powerboats which don't hold up well with age). Great boat though for getting up & down the Finger Lakes.

I didn't know they'd updated the MacGregor and will check into it but am really looking for more of a trawler / pilothouse design which doesn't seem to be built in smaller lengths anymore.

 

I am also fond of a small motorsailer design albeit in the 20-22 foot range. I have an old 1983 hunter 20 that I am thinking of gutting down to a shell and then building in a stronger frame or using the old hull for a mold. I want a boat that can sleep one or two people as comfortably as possible. I like to gunkhole and be able to cruise down the beaches between the passes(inlets) of SW Florida (gulf of mexico.) These inlets are as much as 20 miles but usually less in between each other but I need speed...possibly even "planing" speed...not sold on that yet...just 6 knots or so...to "get back inside" if the weather forecasts prove wrong or what have you. A little motorsailer that can sail at 5 knots...motor/sail economically at 6 knots. My boat will be built for MY neck of the woods...and the weather I know best...and for the type of sailing that I need to be able to do...like the real estate people say...location..location

 

You can have a motorsailing version of your Hunter, but not in the vision you currently have. A pilothouse setup could be used and you'd keep most of the hull liner intact, reducing the effort required.

If the deck cap and liner were removed, you could build a new interior and pilothouse, though it probably will not be as light as the original, slowing down the boat.

To get this hull to 6 knots you'd have to power her to a S/L of 1.53, which is possible with enough HP, though it will be about the limit of this hull. She'll run much more economically at 5 to 5.2 knots, though.

With the pilothouse arrangement, you'll have the weight in a portion of the hull, that can tolerate this burden, without undue strain and or significant trim changes. It'll still be a tight fit on such a small boat, but at least this is possible.

You'd be best advised to keep the sloop rig, though you might want to cut it down a tad. A ketch rig could be employed, but none of the original rig or sails can be used and considerable new structure will be necessary to accommodate the two mast and their hard points, plus sailing performance will degrade, compared to the sloop.

See, I'm not as hateful as you might have imagined.

 

well Guillo you trickster, the ball could mean she is anchored but the ball and cone mean she is restricted in abilty
so in other words the owner and wife may be below, other wise engaged?

 

PAR...you seem to know alot about the Hunter 20 and you are in Florida where they were made...but this boat is fairly unknown to most...and for good reason... I suspect you may have owned one?..or are/ were a Hunter aficionado...at least of their designs...and that was a long time ago...lol...just covering your ***...everyone hates Hunters it seems...
The H-20's finishing was frankly horrible...that was probably normal for early eighties production boats...still it's really deplorable and unseemly for ANY sailboat maker in the industrial world to have unleashed anything resembling the Hunter 20's finishing/workmanship from his sailboat shop. It's just another reason I want to rip the guts out of this thing...The human factor as far as layout and ergonomics of the boat are again a total disaster and reason for what I suspect was a low number that were ever produced...the hull shape and fractional rig seems to have been in the forefront in it's day and very much in demand as a hull shape/rig to this very day for light cruisers/racers/daysailors. I got this tub for $200 and have already sunk more than a grand into it if you count the tohatsu 5hp.
I just love her size...20 feet is such a sweet size really... I briefly had an Irwin 23 and before that a Buc 18 which I actually did sail alot so this is right in there between..I can run aground and jump off the back easily..push or pull her off myself and away I go again... I can't afford another boat and this one fits in my backyard next to the house without being so big as to piss off the neighbors...at least till I get out the sawzall....

 

Nah Whoosh - for that you need two balls (above each other) - "Vessel Not Under Command"

Logical really!!

 

I thought the cone was his rain water collector.

Nope, I've never owned a Hunter 20, nor ever sailed on one (I think). I have known a couple of designers that worked for Hunter over the years and several fabricators. Hunter had about the same reputation as most production boat manufactures during that era. It's just those were the "dark years" of production boat manufacturing and lots of crap went out the door.

The hull shape is better then many in her class, but pretty poor by modern standards. The build is heavy for it's volume, which was typical of the times and it was "tucked" and "pinched" to conform to long since considered terrible rules.

I have a data base of most of the production boats and some comments about each, dependent on the specific design. You mentioned you felt the boat was tender, but my reports suggest it was fairly stiff as these sort of boats go. It has the usual sort of complaints, like the centerboard lanyard breaking, leaks in various spots, etc. Ergonomics wasn't something that was applied in the late 70's, early 80's so sure the seats feel terrible and a tall person will hang off the berth, etc.

If it was me, I just remove the deck cap, and mini liner and start from scratch. This is asking a lot of a novice, so if you've never done this or have limited 'glassing experience, you may want a different approach.

First of all the rig is attached to the deck cap so if it's removed, you'll lose all the reference points. This is a big deal as getting the boat to balance under it's sail plan can be a daunting task for a novice. In this regard the original rig, in it's stock location would solve this problem.

A motorsailor is a bit powerboat and a bit sailboat. Since you are starting with a pure sailboat hull shape, you're very limited with the powerboat end of the spectrum. The best you can hope for is to propel the old girl with an outboard and avoid running down gators or manatees. If she's over burdened with a tall structure, sailing performance will drop off fairly dramatically, particularly up wind. If the weight of this addition is substantial, motoring and sailing abilities will be severely reduced.

In the end, you should access what you'd like to have as a bare minimum for a motorsailor, because that's what this will be, if you expect it to do anything reasonably well.

Forget about standing headroom in a 15' 6" LWL shoal draft sailboat hull, if you would like to have some pointing ability. You can sit down to drink you beer and steer the boat, just like the rest of us. Make an honest list of the things you just must have and see if these things can be done on a little sailboat hull. In other words you can attempt to make a silk purse, from a cow's ear, but much more often then not, it will be considerably less.

 

Hunter 20

PAR...thanks for your assessment of the Hunter 20...it's nice to hear a professional opinion about the design as a whole. There are alot of things as far as a motor-sailer conversion to consider and you have now outlined the major ones....such as the trickiness of balancing a new rig as a novice.
If I go thru with this I would definitely lean towards the ketch rig.... as well as ...

1. bowsprit w/anchor roller

2. outboard well in aft cabin covered by removable dinette table between opposite berths. (operated by remote steering from above aft cabin or amidships)..I know..aft cabin poop deck thing is crazy...but the weight of say...a short shaft 15 hp 2-stroke down low in a doghouse..as well as a heavy skeg added might offset that weight up high. I am sticking my neck out with this thread so go easy on me...still mulling things over...it's half the fun!

Trying to find even vaguely similar projects people may have done online...R&D of something like this should be interesting (and a great way to put off the Florida Chainsaw massacre)