Ekranoplans and ground effect

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by aztek, Nov 6, 2008.

  1. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    If Howard Hughes thought it could have, he would have. He already broke the law by flying even this high. On one interview afterward, he mentioned something about controls being heavy and was afraid of going higher.
    Remember WIGS can get out of GE for short periods.

    If he would have made wings shorter and put flaps, and war would have gone longer, who knows we could have been using Giant wigs to land troops in Japan.

    By the way, it was the first composite structured plane also.
     
  2. kroberts
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    kroberts Senior Member

    So, you're saying the entire design was flawed because the first flight there was something wrong? How many large planes, boats or land vehicles work perfectly the first time they are tested? The first several times out, you taxi a while and return to inspect the plane, even if everything seems fine.

    Hughes was at a serious disadvantage at that time. There was the court case being run by his enemies in the government, the public eye for his eccentricities as much as anything. He couldn't obviously prepare the plane for a full flight under those conditions lest someone suspect something and prevent him from even starting the engines. There is no manufacturer of anything at all who would risk a crash under those circumstances. Had he crashed the plane, history would have viewed him in a much less favorable light.

    Were he to do that today, he would be in prison simply for using a taxiway as a runway under those conditions.
     
  3. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Perhaps the design would have work as planned and it never had a chance. But it was not failure, it was a very innovative design from which many ideas where taken. Even its wing design was ahead of its time. HH ended his life as a mad man but he was a genius for decades. I saw the Spruce Goose when it was in Long Beach next to Queen Mary. I did not really appreciate its design at the time. I wish to go see it again some day.
    Another point of the Goose was it designed in theory to be somewhat economical in materials. It was designed to be a personnel carrier. They thought that thousands where going to have to built to transports troops across the oceans to avoid submarine attacks. But the blockades were broken, anti-submarine teams became effective and the Goose less need. Finally, the war ended before it was needed.
     
  4. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    as I remember in aeronautics history he was over budget on the project
    the gov decided to abandon it and he was pissed off cuase they would not pay out his expenses with the excuse that it would never work
    so he finished it with his own money
    flew it one time to prove em wrong
    and never flew it again
    also refused to submit it for contract even though I think the war had ended
    by the time he had it finished
    he rubbed there nose in it at the beginning of the Korean war when it was nearly lost cause they had nothing to move heavy armor in except ships which were slow
    my two cents
    interesting thread kids
    and yes
    it used ground effects to assist in lift at first but was designed to be fully capable of sustained flight
    kinda of a hybrid although it was as much of a mistake of the design teem as not
    mostly side effect of what happens to any wing as it approaches ground
    IE
    ground effects

    its what made that landing in the Hudson river so sweat earlier this year
    the guy put that plain down perfectly on its belly
    not easy given that with wheals there is not even remotely the ground effect as on a belly landing
    or at least thats what AOPA teaches in its safety seminars
    you gain lift the lower you go
    so people tend push the nose down and next thing that happens
    is it goes down
    way to fast
    and crash
    rather than a nice easy nose up belly landing
     
  5. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    There was even a congressional hearing on it, they were calling him a crook for not delivering on his war time contract. Yes, it was overbudget, but it can out of HH own money. It was way ahead of its time. HH just got so upset with congress and the whole thing he abandon it when he proved them wrong. It would have made a great jumbo airliner, but by then Boeing was already working on the first Jumbo Jet, and nobody wanted a jumbo flying boat.
     
  6. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    for which they needed jumbo airports
    which at the time they didn't have
    I say Mr H got shafted
    although at the same time he was up in front of the holly wood ratings comity for the size of the breasts on his leading lady
    seems they wanted to rate the movie r and he wanted it rated pg
    and the girl was a little to much for the sensibilities of the little old men who were being reminded what a girl was supposed to look like

    dam
    we know way to much about HH

    I got history minor from CU
     
  7. kroberts
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    kroberts Senior Member

    Here's the link to the shortest, most concise version of the story I have seen:

    http://www.sprucegoose.org/aircraft_artifacts/exhibits.html

    The truth of the matter was that the hearings were instigated by corrupt government officials. Hughes successfully defended himself against those charges, but only after significant effort. Yes, the goose was over budget, but it had several first-time technologies and that almost never goes to plan.

    The goose would probably have needed a fifth iteration before becoming practical. The simulators, the guys say it was difficult to take off with rated power -- but it would take off and fly.
     
  8. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Well Mydauphin, there have been almost 20 years in between the days of the "Goose" and the 747. The facts are much simpler, there was no demand for large "Flying Boats" after WWII was over.
    And even HH was in doubt if she could fly out of ground effect `cos the P&W engines did not deliver the 3000hp they should (but even if, that was hardly enough).

    In one point I was not right, measured by wing area and wingspan, she still is the largest airplane by today.

    see comparison

    Regards
    Richard
     

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  9. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    She was still bloody big to be a wooden plane that would (did) :D:D
     
  10. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    given the era in which it was done
    and the fact that it was a first
    and in wood because the war had limited supplies of metal for experimental projects
    and to this day the largest plain that ever flew
    I think its hats off to old Howard
    man took a drill bit company and turned it into some things we still talk about

    cheers
    B
     
  11. aztek
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    aztek Junior Member

  12. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    Aztek, virtually every low-wing aircraft is a WIG during takeoffs and landings. The difference is they have not been optimized for that flight regime but for flying up in the skies.

    From the site you have cited:
    "WIG-crafts are not aircraft's. Specific design criteria's are complete different compared to an aircraft. For example the take off. An aircraft uses a angle of about 14 degree for maximum lift to shorten the take off distance. A WIG-craft has to be started without this facility. To flare with high speed so low over a surface the have to be auto stable. Over the years different types of WIG-crafts where developed to optimize this type of craft."
    With all the respect for those guy's work, these arguments have nothing to do with a legal distinction between WIGs and aircraft.

    WIGs are a particular type of airplane, if an airplane is a machine entirely sustained by pressure field induced by the airflow around it.
    When flying over a water surface WIGs have to obey to maritime traffic rules.
    If they take-off from an airfield and then crash in the middle of a desert, the survivors will not call the Coast Guard to come and save them, I guess.
    WIG stands for Wing In Ground-effect.
    Wing, birds, airplanes. No wing, no WIG.
     
  13. aztek
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    aztek Junior Member

    hi
    Daquiri i see you feel very strongly on this topic


    'If they take-off from an aerofield and then crash in the middle of a desert, the survivors will not call the Coast Guard to come and save them,'

    the same could be said of the survivors of any crash in the dessert- but a car is not a WIG, or hover-craft crash.

    Aztek:p
    PS: how do you crash a hover-craft?
     
  14. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    Yep, I'm an aeronautical engineer, try to understand me. These boating guys are trying to steal stuff from my airfield and take to their... port. :p
    Yes, it was just to say that it would be pretty difficult to crash with a boat in the middle of a desert. ;)
    Anything can be done. Just find a sufficiently strong wall or a pillar.
     

  15. aztek
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    aztek Junior Member

    hi

    Yes, it was just to say that it would be pretty difficult to crash with a boat in the middle of a desert. ;)

    not if its on a trailer!:p ;)
    Aztek
     
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