The Wind Powered Sail-less Boat

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by DuncanRox, Oct 20, 2008.

  1. Joakim
    Joined: Apr 2004
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    Location: Finland

    Joakim Senior Member

    Could you please show me where I made a mistake?

    You don't agree energy E = P * t, in SI units E: [Ws] =[J], P: [W]=[J/s], t: ???? When I said 12 kW of power flows through the propeller disk, you can calculate that in one second there has flown 12 kJ and in one hour 12 kWh.

    Mass multiplied by speed is NOT energy, it's momentum [kgm/s]. Kinetic energy is 0.5*m*V^2: [kgm^2/s^2] = [Nm].

    You seem to mix "multiply" and "per" so badly that I don't know what you mean by your definition of acceleration. Please show them in mathematical form.

    Joakim
     
  2. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    well said 3D
    and no it wasnt prewritten
    
I really can write and hoist a few at the same time
    its called multi tasking
    buy the way
    the energy consideration is what Ive been trying to get across here for quite some time


    I also mentioned all of this before as well and it only got ignored

    matter of fact
    if you mention anything that deviates from the dream
    your going to get ignored or insulted

    for instance
    Rick
    I would love to see em but I have a high security computer that doesnt like there format
    could you please reformat and post again
    Ild love to grapple and grok the mythical monster you seem to believe in so vehemently

    it seems maybe you missed this post ( so I will repost it ) because you sure seem to have deliberately ignored it

    and I have to wonder who is having trouble understanding when you fail to address a single error in your model

     
  3. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    guys the energy of a moving body is defined through consideration of its mass and its velocity

    for instance
    E=mc2
    or if you really want to get confused
    E=hV

    there is a number of ways you can write this
    but in the end
    its mass and velocity
     
  4. 3dyachts
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: Saigon

    3dyachts Senior Yacht Designer

    Sorry: wrong again!

    It is a propeller, indeed, and it does it's propulsion although the craft may be going at a higher speed than air in it's average direction through the fact that the wind is most of the time at an angle with it's disc, not perpendicular.

    And then it not only propels the craft forward, but also does transmit some of this power (or energy: depends if you're fighting friction and acceleration, or simply cosntant motion) to the wheels which help this forward motion. Reciving the wind at an angle, it acts as a propeller which has a "lift" (remember the comparison with gyroplanes) AND as a turbine tranferring power to the wheels.

    There is also something which, having indicated to me this funny treadmill video, should not have escape your attention: it is the comparative diameter of the wheels.

    Doesn't your acute mechanical sense tell you that it would be a little difficult to the tiny wheels of Mr. goodman's "DDW..." thingy to transfer any torque to the big prop above? And these are not rubber on rubber like on the treadmill, but on gravels and irregular tarmac!

    My poorly thought out foray, you said????
     
  5. Joakim
    Joined: Apr 2004
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    Joakim Senior Member

    Please tell me how on earth can you measure energy in newtons? Since when is energy directly proportional to velocity?

    As you should already understand this gearing cart is supposed to model a turbine/propeller craft in water/air interface or a propeller/wheel cart in air/road interface. Thus the fixed/ground is road/water and the "plate" is air flowing at wind velocity.

    Please calculate the mass of air flowing around a lake of your choice and compare that to the mass of any vessel. Do you think it has enough kinetic energy to accelerate a vessel/cart.

    Also keep in mind that there is a weather system that keeps up the wind velocity. It is the weather system (=sun) that provides the energy needed or the blower in a wind tunnel.

    Joakim
     
  6. Joakim
    Joined: Apr 2004
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    Location: Finland

    Joakim Senior Member

    There is no relevance in this discussion to quantum physics, theory of relativity nor electromagnetic waves, all of which I have studied quite a bit. So please stop posting this BS.

    This is just plain classical mechanics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_mechanics
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion

    Joakim
     
  7. Joakim
    Joined: Apr 2004
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    Location: Finland

    Joakim Senior Member

  8. philSweet
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: Beaufort, SC and H'ville, NC

    philSweet Senior Member

    Boston and others,

    Regarding your energetic defense of physical laws- you complain that we seem to be violating one when we carry a bucket of energy from the water to the air. Look at what happens to visible light when we do this. It refracts. It is in the nature of energy to do so across free surfaces. It appears to violate physical laws, but it doesn't. If you wish to carry energy accross the free surface, please include a refraction coefficient, or its analog, appropriate to the frame of reference being discussed. Or just do what we do- choose a frame of reference such as dynamics, in which only forces, not energy, need be transfered. If you want an energy model for the DDWFTTW proposition, please provide a convenient frame of reference for the workings such as Rick has done for the dynamic system. Will the velocity of wind and water appear in this frame of reference? If not, how can they create a limit to anything?


    An infinite number of mathematicians walk into a bar. The first one orders a beer. The second orders half a beer. The third, a quarter of a beer. The bartender says "You're all idiots", and pours two beers.
     
  9. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    being wrong is one thing
    being a poor sport
    is just bad form

    why the deflecting argument
    instead of just a simple admission
    the numbers have proven to be bunk
    the model shown to be flawed
    the concept shown to defy the simple laws of physics
    and the gearing shown to be irrelevant on a dead down wind run


    on the previous questions on force vs energy
    the term energy and the term force are for all practical purposes interchangeable
    while I would say we are talking NEWTON'S
    that would be measured in kilograms moving one meter per second squared
    when talking gearing expressed as a unit of energy or force
    and what is energy or force
    I think professor Mellendorf said it best

    argue with him if you chose

    now go study up on flywheels and see if you gain a better understanding

    but this pathetic argument in semantics is classic to people not willing to admit error
    you cant just assign newton's to the equation with out defining mass
    period
    otherwise they are some kind of fig newton
    and you still havnt addressed the flaws pointed out in the system

    I was serious about buying in my previous
    right wrong I just though Ild extend an olive branch
    but instead of hoisting a few and making nice
    you guys are showing some really bad form here

    my point earlier about E=mc2 is that energy can be expressed in about a million ways
    so whats the point about arguing which
    when the subject is about DDWFTTW
    eh

    its ok to be wrong folks
    Im wrong
    your wrong
    we are all wrong from time to time
    hell
    Ive made several silly errors in my argument against this thing
    thing still doesnt work but I made mistakes to
    so what
    I was wrong
    not so hard to admit
    now you try it
    just think of how relaxing the day is to have learned something and moved on
    for everything Edison got rite
    he got a hole lot wrong as well
    peace people
    I think we have beaten this horse to a bloody pulp
    and I for one am not interested anymore
    B
     
  10. Guest625101138

    Guest625101138 Previous Member

    Joakim, Tcubed, Windmaster and all the others that have joined me in this bit of fun I think it is time to let the cat out of the bag. It is getting beyond a joke now and I have other things to get on with.

    We might have eventually convinced Boston if 3dyachts had not weighed in late with his detailed observations. Although he did not get the Goodman cart right. His explanation on that IS crap. It just uses batteries. It had me fooled until I saw the original publication date of the article was April 2005. Also I do not think ALL the treadmill carts use the same trick with the "spirit" level (The "spirit" is clear set silicone rubber - the trouble people go to try to trick others). I believe some simply have fans running behind the carts so there is already air movement.

    Anyhow Boston I think we had you tottering until you got a bit more support. Maybe if we could have convinced Guillermo to play along early on we might have fooled you. You're right of course. It is all about ENERGY. I thought Joakim's idea with the little cart and bringing gearing in on the act was plausible but you kept pushing - show me the energy balance. We cannot of course as this would prove it could not possibly work. Don't bother looking at the videos of my little cart. As 3dyachts pointed out they are just nonsense - nothing to do with the nub of the reality - energy.

    I hope you are not put out by our elaborate ruse but we were just having some entertainment. Hopefully you do not feel it was at your expense. If you are upset with our sport then I apologies.

    Rick W
     
  11. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    I was wondering why you guys wouldn't see reason
    no worries
    all in good fun

    oh
    and no
    you didnt have me convinced at any time
    wasnt even close
    but you did have me fooled
    I though you guys seriously believed in this thing
    B
     
  12. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    Got me suckered too.... Good fun but and still an interesting read ... as I have said elsewhere - "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" don't know whose quote that is but I am using it :D:D:D:D:D

    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rick Willoughby again." so I am constrained by rules..... Thanks from an old fart....
     
  13. philSweet
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: Beaufort, SC and H'ville, NC

    philSweet Senior Member

    Yes, it was in bad taste, and I appologize. I was trying point out the sillyness of doing things the hard way, but missed the mark.
     
  14. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    not really
    I was actually on the way out the door to hoist a few
    when I heard the comp chime
    no flies on you mate
    was a pretty funny joke all in all
    I kinda got a bang out of it once I was let in on it
    B
     

  15. 3dyachts
    Joined: May 2008
    Posts: 16
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    Location: Saigon

    3dyachts Senior Yacht Designer

    Well done! it really got me hooked up....but not fooled (excepted in thinking you really believed in all that! )

    Then, first, may I ask how "real" was the original question that started the thread, ? Since it is that which got me hooked-up to start with, it "may" have been a pity that an interesting question got sunk because this April's fool game...!

    Second is that, would there have been reality in the little cart video, I gave what I think is the only possible reponse to the accelaration of this cart: side wind. This is no BS.

    Third is that: Sorry, but I do not see where was the slightest need to be "on the verge" of insults to someone who jumped in against this obvious DDTWF... nonsense affirmation ???
    Gives this "joke" a bad taste.....!
     
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