Dried out

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by david morris, Nov 2, 2008.

  1. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    "traditionally cauked with cotton "


    on decks yes, below the water it is hemp.
     
  2. riggertroy
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    riggertroy Senior Member

    Have come across alot of small yachts cauked with cotton and it was a traditional way of cauking small boats due to the very narrow seams,

    The condition of a cauking on my boat (built in 1953) was in very good condition, the experts that saw her and gave advice / helped said most of it did not need renewing.

    different ways in different places
     
  3. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    True, but all places have found cotton underwater to be not as durable as hemp, the cotton rots in time and goes black and gooey
     
  4. riggertroy
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    riggertroy Senior Member

    Fairs fair, but in the case of my boat, 50years old, no black gooey stuff found anywhere - though not sure when she was last fully re-cauked, Oakum also rots, I have seen it, smelt it and had to rake seams to clear it.
    As my boat was done with cotton originally, it had the few metres that needed re-caulking done again with cotton, also oakum is not that easy to get here where as cotton is readily available :)
     
  5. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yep, cotton is often used in the narrow seams of smaller boats. As long as the planking movement is controlled (fasteners, framing, etc.), all caulking materials will last a long time, assuming a seam compound remains intact. It's the seam compound that is the usually culprit that begins the cycle of rotted caulking. It's the weak leak, in that is can't accept as much movement as the caulk, fasteners or planking, so it lets go first, permitting the wet stuff to have it's way with the caulk.
     
  6. thudpucker
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    thudpucker Senior Member

    If you've never had the pleasure of doing the: Gouging, cleaning, soaking the cotton in Okum, hammering the cotton into the joint, puttying the seams over the cotton......you've just missed one of the worst jobs in the whole wide world.

    That black gooey stuff is Okum. Tar like stuff to help the cotton seal the seam.

    Then the boat goes into the water and soaks up water, leaks, gurgles, and all the dirt you thought you had vacuamned out shows up and clogs the pumps.
    You need a pump for every compartment and probably could use a pump for every 10 feet of boat.

    You need a set of Gouging tools, and a set of Caking Tools.
    A leather or Wood mallat. Eye protection. A Sony and Ear phones. Did I mention the patience and dilligence to do a good job even when you just dont see the reason for it?
    I've done that twice on Cedar boats. It's one of the things I live in terror of Poverty ever ever driving me back to doing.
     
  7. riggertroy
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    riggertroy Senior Member

    Oh well the little Woolacott is still floating 5months after being put in the water and everyone that has had a good look over her says we must have done everything right, a little water in the bilge is not a bad thing (unless it is fresh) I still have lots to do but the replanking and cauking we did is holding well and no major leaks to speak of.

    Thudpucker, agree lots of crap floats out :) though the pump did not clog and I did not need the big pump that was provided at the yard, the fitted bilge pump worked well. A bit disconcerting seeing that water come in to start with but the next day she was pretty good.
     
  8. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    thidpucker,

    done plenty of coulking in my younger days mate, and the rotten stuff is not oakum, it is rotten packing. I take great pride in my workmanship, and never tired of caulking seams in new or repaired vessels. It is a great pleasure to set up a dry boat.

    riggertroy,

    sorry to be a pesky argumentative bugger, but water is not good in a bilge, the bilge should be dry, water leaking into a boat is then evaporated and thends to increase himidity inside the vessel, resulting in "dry" rot, which is neither dry nor rot, but you know what I mean.
    Dry rot needs temperature and humidity to live, removing the water from the bilge removes the chances of the fungus living.
     
  9. thudpucker
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    thudpucker Senior Member

    On Water in the bilges.
    There will always be water in the bilges in a Plank n' Caulk boat.
    You cannot stop it from happening because the seams at the water line are always changing from wet to dry. Wood is not impervioius to water and niether is the Caulk n' Okum. Your Drip drip drip of the shaft log helps too.
    Rain water will work its way down into the bilges as well.

    The anchient Mariners knew to soak the inside of the ships with Salt water to keep the Rot down. Fresh water helps Rot faster than Salt water.
    Too late they found out about Metalurgy enough to make bronze and stainless fasteners.

    So...Landlubber makes the correct statment about rot. A warm, enclosed space with water and no wind are just the perfect environment for Rot.

    Keep you bilges aired out. make a 'flow through' from for n' aft and side to side. Dont leave any lockers closed and locked if they dont have vents.

    I think (yup sometimes I do!) that an air horn system, with a larger air horn at one end of the boat, and a smaller one at the other end should cause a differnece in air pressure enough to cause an air flow from one to the other.
    Somebody who knows about that theory better speak up here!

    I read an interestingly written book about rot and mildew a long time ago.
    The guy started his book with: "Wood rot is good. If it were not for wood rot, the earth would be coverd about 90 feet deep in old trees lying about....."
    That was one of the wittiest demonstrating of the systems of Checks n' Balances of nature that Man should be emulating.
    Protect and keep the good and let the rest go on to become protien.

    Would that we could make our political system like that!
     
  10. thudpucker
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    thudpucker Senior Member

    I had a big 22' open Cedar 'caulk n' plank' boat for years. It was a lot of work of course and always had water in it, and ugly a boat as you've never seen.

    It was the most useful boat I ever owned. I did more and caught more fish out of that boat than any other I've ever owned.

    This was in Seattle and it rains a bit there. Always and constantly.
    Pumping was a problem. I paid for Electricity at the moorage and that would keep my battery charged so the bilge pumps would continue to work.

    When the Two pumps were not exactly enough, I came up with an invention.
    I had scrapped an old Wasing machine.
    I took the motor and mounted it way up on the transom. High enough that water wouldn't get to it.
    I found an old flexible drive cable. Similar to a Speedometer cable, but this one was about 3/8" thick.
    I put the washing machine pump down in the bilges, right on the planks but it was inside a screen made of Window/bug screen so the pump wouldnt get any really big stuff and clog.
    I used an old Toilet Float and a long rod to turn a switch on and off as the water level rose and fell.

    You'd be surprised at how much water one of those washing machine pumps can throw and how high they can throw it. I could have used it for a washdown pump.

    That litttle tid bit of history is for you guys that really like to do-it-yourself.
    Today we'd just buy a Rule 1700GPM and a float switch.
     
  11. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I disagree in that "There will always be water in the bilges in a Plank n' Caulk boat". I've caulked my share, the last being an50 year old, 40' Atkins double ender (the one you were on Fred). With the exception of a butt block that just decided to spring open, since repaired, the bilge is dusty, not wet, moist or other wise have any water in it. If you have water in the bilge of a properly caulked boat, then you have an issue not addressed.

    Seams, butt blocks, plank scarfs, etc. can be repaired and caulked. If your through hulls, stuffing box and other hull penetrations are tight and the planking caulked properly, it'll be water tight. Not almost water tight, but truly water tight.
     
  12. thudpucker
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    thudpucker Senior Member

    I'd never argue with you PAR. I was a Teenager when I got that boat.
    I recall some extremely difficult places to dig the old stuff out and replace with new.
    If you've never done it, I know you have PAR but for the other guys, some times you just have one heckuva time getting the Cotton to pound in and stay. It just springs right back out at you.
    As a Teen ager I may not have been as dilligent as I should be.
    All the fishing boats I worked on had water. In fact every cauled wood boat I was ever on had water in the bilges so I took that to be the standard.
     
  13. ned L
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    ned L Junior Member

    Cotton & oakum (some have called it hemp here) are traditionally for two different uses. In small boat planking (less that maybe 1 1/2") cotton is used alone. In larger vessel planking 2+" thick, first cotton is payed in & hardened up, then oakum (like tarred hemp) is payed in on top of the cotton. Both are followed by paint (red lead) and then seam compound. Cotton is a fine fiber which is good for the small seams, and the bottoms of the seam in larger seams. Oakum is a coarser material which is good for the outer portion of the larger seams. On very light planking you might use only a caulking wheel to lay in the cotton as the use of an iron & may damage the plank edges.
     
  14. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    well out on the cape my dad and grand dad always frowned on cotton
    Oakum is just pine tar
    grand dad also had a place in vermont and had a sugar house
    so he bled pine as well and boiled it down to save a few bucks
    you want to talk about a grim task
    try fraying and soaking rope
    as a summer chore
    I suppose I can see why old dad didnt want to do it himself
    but dam
    oh and we sure had some leakers
    course after a little lesson in redo it and this time you wont be able to sit when you do
    you tend to get it water tight
    best
    B

    oh and your seams pop because you didnt soak long enough or you didnt fray your packing to the right size
    ah
    and I always thought grand dad put salt along the floors because he was superstitious
    didnt know it had to do with rot
    I know he was dam picky about water along the frames though
    if something leaked
    it had better not be your end of the boat that did the leaking

    oh well
    Ill bow out and let the more experienced have at it
    but it made for interesting reading
    thanks
    B
     

  15. thudpucker
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    thudpucker Senior Member

    Aha the makin's of Disipline in boatbuilding.
    Whenever I worked on caulk boat and put it in the water, I could hear my uncle lecturing me.
    Somehow my caulk jobs always leaked for awhile though.

    How come we all still dabble in wood boat information? It's Anchored in our soul somewhere deep down and also I think it's one of those itches you cannot scratch completly away.
    I dont feel moved to go back into it though. Just look in from the outside.
     
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