Low price Catamarans

RB ISO 9001-2000 Certificate

in attachment

 

Last post on this subject

An approved ISO 9001 QA scheme is often percieved by customers as proving the quality of the end product (rightly or not).

As we see in this example, it is being used to promote a boat builder and his boats, despite the fact that the approval is for a completely different company, and does not cover the building of boats.

People need to make their own decisions on this kind of behaviour, in my book it sets off alarm bells.

A******, I agree with you that this has nothing directly to do with building boats, but it does have something to do with ethics, which I am sure you will agree are an important past of any business relationship be it with customers or suppliers.

 

low priced catamarans

Hello Nordic Cat,

Seems like you are getting the right picture, well done Nordic Cat !!

Are the skeletons getting restless ?.

Also Concerned

 

Rb Iso 9001-2000

excellent Nordic Cat !,

An approved ISO 9001 QA scheme is often percieved by customers as proving the quality of the end product (rightly or not).

so , FINALLY , we prooved our certification and it is prooved that you were defamating

But now that the certification is proven , of course it is not enough : just see below :

As we see in this example, it is being used to promote a boat builder and his boats,

This would apply to EVERY ISO CERTIFIED COMPANY OF THE WORLD !!!

Listen people ! the ISO certification , listening to this expert , is a bare marketing device ! Congratulation . Tons of books and so many hours spent trying to set up an efficient quality control system , but what is important is only the sign . Amazing .

despite the fact that the approval is for a completely different company, ALL OUR CONTRACTS AND LICENCES HAVE THE SAME COMPANY NAME THEN OUR ISO CERTIFICATION


and does not cover the building of boats.

it covers the supply of boats and for a boatyard , would you pls explain what is the supply of boats as we don't sell used boats and we don't trade other brand boats ???

Anyway the Yard is using the ISO manual for the production too , as for the management , as it is a useful tool and not a marketing device .

Actually everything that works properly is also a marketing device : even the beautiful 12 cylinders of a Ferrari is a marketing device , despite being a useful tool .


As the ISO manual is a beautiful and practical tool for our company , there is an evident positive feedback from the clients ; is it a sign that the company is getting or trying to get organized and efficient . Clients , most of them i think , would see this as positive . Not everybody , but of course it doesn't matter , as we cannot serve everybody anyway

People need to make their own decisions on this kind of behaviour, in my book it sets off alarm bells.

Also on my book , if it happens to you to think about building a boat ..


Regards


RB

 

Hi All,

I'm not a ISO expert by any means. But, because it is a European standard, I am pretty sure that Nordic Cat, who is from Denmark, knows about it.

It is clear that RB and Nordic Cat are not communicating. Partly language and partly aggressive business practice. "approval", "accreditation", "certification", "registration" are all loaded words vis-a-vis the ISO system, and have special meanings. I've attached a couple of examples of certificates that indicate "approval" of the named company's ISO systems. I believe these are the kinds of "certificates" that Nordic Cat is talking about.

Also attached is a succinct description of the "approval" process for the Mercury company. Like Nordic said, the certificates have the emblems of the auditing and registering bodys on the certificate.

Basically, to get "approval", an independent body, like DNV in one case below,
sends a team of people (an audit team) to your company and over a few days goes through all your facility and bookwork to make sure that you are in fact following the ISO rules. It is not sufficient to proclaim you are using the ISO methods to be "approved". Only an independent body, like DNV, can do that. Of course all this cost money.

Europeans speak up if I am wrong.

Why should a Thai boatbuilder care? Well, if you export to Europe, then perhaps the boat owner's home country may not allow a boat to be registered or documented within the home country unless it was built by an ISO "approved" builder. The owner will be very angry if you told him you were ISO "approved", but you are not, and he can not register the boat that he paid for. Perhaps the foreign boat dealer is only allowed to sell boats from ISO "approved" builders. I am only guessing about these scenarios since I don't know the EU rules.

cheers
rself

http://www.deltechcorp.com/deltech02/isocert.htm
http://rib.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=37194&d=1219839630

 

Please don’t make everything so difficult, we are just talking about boats, about pleasure.... and we all have to understand that some new rules needed in the West and in Europe are just necessary to open more businesses, to increase taxes and get more employs to seat on a desk….. I export boats to Europe (and US); I am not certified ISO or other but I can get legally a CE mark on my boats without so many troubles. Needs just to call a surveyor (and PAY him!!! SICK…!!) from one of the many certified companies in the worlds, like from South Africa or from The Netherlands as I do, ECB http://www.ecb.nl/ or IMCI http://www.imci.org/; surveyors that are always happy to come here in Thailand and certifying boats (and relaxing on beaches and discos…); I have just to sign some stupid papers in the mean time they look at the boat and release certifications....that's all. Off course we test if the boat “floats” first.... It is my responsibility to build boats following ISO rules and I can say that it is just how always boats were built in the right marine practices from which those rules derived… nothing more!!
To your knowledge here some costs of surveying and how to obtain a CE mark:
Dear Luigi,
Yes I can come and arrange your CE certification. In fact I was at ____ (another company name in Thailand) ______ a years ago, which I believe is in your area. I will try to phone you later today. We will need a Curve or righting moment for any boat below 10 m in cat B.
I can get in the plane at any time and help you out.
I charge 45 euro per hour except for the stability where I must charge 55 euro because of the additional Notified body fee.
My travel fees excluding the travel costs are 55 euro per hour with a maximum of 8 hours (so if it takes me 20 hours to get to Thailand I still charge only 8 hours)
The fee for the certificate Notified body certificate is 890 Euro per boat with an annual update fee of 195 euro.
I just contacted the travel agency; there are 3 weekly direct flights from Cape Town to Bangkok. Then I have the transfer to Chonburi by Taxi or bus and my stay which I would ask you to arrange. (I do not need a 5 star hotel, a bed and a shower is fine) I suggest I come around the 14th so that we have a bit of time to prepare everything I would then stay the whole week to asses the necessary tests.
I could do more yards and then you could share the travel cost. Obviously they would have to be ready for it, if they are not finished yet this could be as a first visit for the construction.
If we can get another yard to be surveyed this would obviously reduce my travel costs since it then would be shared.
For the stability the hourly rate is 55 euro because I must do it trough the notified body I expect to need about 7 hours per boat if you deliver all calculations according ISO 12217.
The certificate cost 890 euro that is what you need to pay directly to the notified body.
For your boat we are therefore looking at approx:
1000 euro flight
300 euro general travel costs
880 euro max travel time
1575 euro survey
385 euro stability in accordance with ISO 12217
890 euro certificates Module Aa
Please note that this is based on you providing all documents and calculations as required for the technical file.

Kind regards

That’s all….. I don’t see any problem to get it, if you build the boat in the right way, otherwise you have to rectify your product.
Please note that in Thailand we aren’t building boats in a jungle with just an axe and without electric power like many seem to think here....please see picture!
Reading some posts here, I believe that West-EU are becoming the real jungles….

Also about building boats in Thailand, it requires a little luck too, at least to get the right customers (or to choose the right one) that understands promptly about all these issues, and that maybe could also helps to get CE mark or helps to solve other matters required in EU, US, etc.., that could understands about custom building delivery delays occurring in Asia and finally may could also understands about our "pidgeon English", otherwise I can kindly suggest to go build his boat in UK or US....because he chooses to build the boat in Thailand-Asia, nobody forced him....

 

low priced RB catamarans

Hello, Been Robbed..., I have talked to Workers ON THIS BOAT and they tell me the FACTS as follows: Seems like the builder should honor some warranty !!! PLEASE INFORM THE PUBLIC MORE !!
THIS BOAT WAS ONLY TOUCHED BY THE BUILDER UNTIL THE OWNER HAD IT REMOVED FROM THE WATER AFTER ONLY 11 MONTHS OLD !! ALL DEFECTS STATED WERE THE WORKMANSHIP OF RB, BOAT WAS MANAGED BY RB FOR THE 11 MONTHS WHILE IN THE WATER.

THIS BUILDER DOES NOT HONOR ANY WARRANTY

 

customers voice

Having read all of this I learned a couple of things:

Buyer beware when buying in SE Asia. Wohw... Sending a few 100k to SE Asia shouldn't be done easily. someone who does not execute a project involving a few 100k USD without caution anywhere in the world is either naive or wealthy enough that he doesn't have to care for a few 100k more or less.
But hey - that's something I knew before and I regard anyone not checking a yard in detail before signing a check or personally watching it's work as damn naive or stupid.

The whiners have some made some very minor points but most is just whining without any proof. Watching a windshield leak for months until your wood counter starts to rot is brain-dead. No matter who's fault the leak was initially I would have fixed it before additional damage was caused. Same for the damage caused by leaking tanks and such.

Faking multiple identities to support your case makes any of your statements worthless. I don't believe a word when I experience you are switching identities like Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde

Before you offend me as being *****'s friend: Reading *****'s comments (not to the whining but in general) I have a bad gut feeling for some reason. Some of his comments to Nordic Cat are harsh and he appears to be someone that I don't want to deal with.

ISO certification helps executing a consistent quality management process to allow you achieve consistent results. But you just get consistently good or consistently bad results. Nothing forces you to improve except your own strive for being better.
Those who believe in management processes more than in creativity and skills of individuals should look for ISO certificates in everything they do or buy. I couldn't care less - it is my honest believe that these management processes are far inferior to common sense but still replace common sense in many companies!
BTW: I have recently seen a nice framed ISO 9001 certificate in a small fast food restaurant in a district full of engineering companies (maybe a joke, don't know, haven't taken the time to validate the certificate chain)...

Luigi has my sympathy for bringing some sanity into this thread and especially his intention to leave the boat building business once he has to be certified in whatever. Those who execute good craftsmanship and have managed to keep some common sense can do without. Sometimes much better because managed processes (and especially management focussed on processes) kill creativity - at least you have more fun without .
I guess I'll give him a call once I am ready to kick off my project

 

from RB Power & Sailing

Dear rzj7l2 ,


appreciated . One post with good common sense , finally , i would say .

I am absolutely in agreement with you about the ISO certfication and other management systems that can be avoided just using a bit of common sense .

I am the kind of guy that worked for decades keeping the accounting on a piece of paper , typically the back of an old receipt .

It just became impossible keep going that way , as the businness growed up . I feld that the control was lost and i hired an office manager and a full team of 'experts ' ( hope they don't read this forum ...) just to help me .

I am a carpinter and this is my expertise . i got a university degree in businness admin. but i never ever practiced and frankly , it is not my dream work .

well , the ISO is just one of the many attempts of getting the things run under control . Believe me , it is not easy .

we hire new workers every week , there are continously difficulties with the language , deal with the authorities on one side ( we are working on a new workshop ) , with clients on the other side , with suppliers on the other side ( too many sides ...)

Customers that dealt with me , directly and still like to do the same way . Fine, they are right i guess . But i don't have materially the time to follow up everybody personally . ( i don't have time to write any post in this forum as well , rationally talking ) .

Dear rzj7l2 ,

pls notice that i have been attacked on a personal base , in many anonymous posts , in this and in other forums .

i use to receive anonymous emails with offences , from the same 2 guys of course , including requests of money in order to stop the campaign .

Nordic Cat is probably an excellent guy . I should have avoided to answer to questions relating the ISO sign and so , but now is done already .

Sometimes i posted when in the office i had a queue of persons in front of me : suppliers and others , waiting for orders , explanations , contracts and money ( this last , mostly ) .

Luigi/******* recommended many times to avoid to answer and he is probably right .

I don't think it is possible to judge a person by a post , so when you will come to Thailand to order a boat from A****** ( i am a customer of A****** too ! ) , may be i can join for a dinner ( i eat only spaghetti of course )


bye


RB

 

OK if for a Pizza, but... if it is by traditional wood-fire oven... I don't care about new CE norms that say it is carcinogen.... I don't like certified ovens... I joke!

 

low priced thailand catamarans

Hello Siam Sailor, just read your comments, can you say more details.

I would like to hear more.

thanks
Also Concerned

 

I read this thread late at night when I cant sleep...........

 

This newly registered lurker (Hi folks!) hears rumours of problems prior to the launch of ccoh's Tiki and RB has offered to sell me a part-complete Penny 26 that shows more than a passing resemblance to the boat in rself's pdf. Can anyone enlighten me?

 

Penny 26

Hi

We offered to you the same Penny 26 ; this boat has been sold at the beginning of this year .

the person you mentioned decided not to complete the project ; You could have asked directly to me , of course ;

Tiki 38 of Mr. Creed O'Hanlon : the boat is sitting in the Yard , completed and ready to be launched .

Waiting for some paperwork to be updated .

About this , you could have asked to Mr. O'Hanlon as you are his direct friend . . You should be enlighted by now :idea:

bye

RB

 

Thank you kindly RB. I do indeed hope to learn more from ccoh, but I'm hardly enlightened. This thread has had much to say regarding the relevance of caveat emptor to those hoping to achieve savings by building in Thailand and elsewhere. It comes as little surprise then that a post on this forum attracts a rapid response, when repeated emails seeking information do not. A prospective buyer learning that their intended purchase is no longer available through a forum discussion is hardly likely to become a satisfied customer. Like many other posts in this thread, I see yours as being less 'enlightenment' than smoke around the edges of a tightly closed door. As they say, where there's smoke, there's fire .....