Low price Catamarans

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by SteveW, Mar 8, 2008.

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  1. Nordic Cat
    Joined: Jan 2008
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    Location: South of Copenhagen, Denmark

    Nordic Cat Senior Member

    Well said boat fan.

    An honest and trustworthy builder will take care of his potential and exsisting customers in a fair manner. He will ensure that they have a sound and fair contract to protect both parties.

    It doesn't always have to be "dog eat dog" out there.....

    Alan
     
  2. robert self
    Joined: Dec 2006
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    Location: seattle

    robert self Junior Member

    grahm has a valid question

    Hi Graham,

    Good question. I only know of one in Thailand, who can be contacted through his charter boat website. See my post #23. Yes, they charter a catamarran built by *****. So there is at least one.

    http://www.ladysampan.dk/about.html

    It just may be that ***** can't get any of his happy customers to 1) join this forum, 2) write a compliment. They could care less about *****'s future customers. They're satisfyed.

    cheers
    rself
     
  3. robert self
    Joined: Dec 2006
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    Location: seattle

    robert self Junior Member

    Low Price, Long Wait?

    ***** **********'s RB Corp is thriving. By his own account his backlog of projects are many. His cash flow will be positive for some time to come. Good for him. How about the waiting clients?

    I am not a business man, but I do know that it takes awhile for a company to scale up from, say, $100,000 net a year to 1 million net a year. A factor of 10x increase in size. It takes time to acquire land, construct buildings, hire/train new people, put management in place, deal with government bureaucracy, etc. How long does all this take? I am sure ***** is doing the best that he can with the resources he has to deliver his projects on time. However, realistically he can not control the pace. Too many variables. So when you wire your 140,000 baht deposit to secure your place in the que for a $100,000 boat be realistic and multiply the build time by 2x, maybe 4x. Can you keep the dream alive for 2 years or more all the while sending money to Thailand? If trust is not a huge issue at the start of the project, after 1.5 years of waiting it surely will be.

    If you have the cash maybe you can hire an onsite advocate to push your project along. The last set of *****-pics are of the T60 motor yacht. Beautiful work. The building of this boat at *****'s yard is over-seen by the designer Albert Nazarov who lives nearby in Pattaya, Thailand. I've been told
    that he comes to the yard to inspect ongoing work a couple times a week. The T60 owner is paying thousands of dollars for this service. Even then the T60 launch is overdue. The RB website http://www.*******************/boats-power/t60-passagemaker-powership.html still says launch in June/08. Well, this is Sept/08. The T60 project started about 1 year ago, a bit before my project, a heavy displacement 26 ft monohull http:/ www.*******************/boats-sailing/penny-yacht-26.html.

    An aside, I am actually glad that this http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...er&&hosturl=midcoastyacht&&ywo=midcoastyacht& 80 ft ketch project at RB corp got cancelled and the hull for sale, else even more manpower would be siphoned away.

    ccoh, a poster on this thread, *****-advocate, ***** client and Tiki38 blogger http://www.tiki38.blogspot.com/ also has an overdue boat. ccoh has blogged about the expectation of launch of his Tiki 38 at least 4 times since March/08 that I can find. Last I read his Tiki 38 was 4 months overdue. But I am sure ccoh will correct me if I am wrong. I can only assume that no work is being done now on ccoh's boat because he has had no construction updates on hs blog. He is in more of a rush than I am, but we both know that manpower gets shifted from our boats to other projects, whether they be the serial catamarrans, new custom boats, or who knows what else. Well, Nov-Feb is a better launch period for the Gulf of Thailand than June. Temperature/humidity is much more pleasant.

    The last pics I recieved of work on my boat was in July, about 2 months ago. The guy taking the pics and supervising my project has departed.
    ***** assures me that work is progressing, but no pics. We are now discussing the timing of the next stage payment. I think I prefer
    keeping the stage payment in my interest-bearing account rather than in *****'s bank account. About every two weeks I send an email with a signed PDF letter requesting pics showing progress toward the contract milestones. I don't feel taken advantage of, yet. I suspect that ccoh is in the same situation. There is no question in my mind that *****'s workforce is capable of doing excellant work (as per the post #127 T60 pics), eventually.

    cheers
    rself
     
  4. boat fan
    Joined: Sep 2008
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    Location: Australia

    boat fan Senior Member

    The very best of luck Robert.

    As you are committed now , I wish you the best of outcomes.
    The situation is , for the most part out of your control.

    Post some pics when you can :)
     
  5. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
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    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    I was wondering how long it would take for someone to point this out.

    Excellent post!
     
  6. robert self
    Joined: Dec 2006
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    Location: seattle

    robert self Junior Member

    Hi boat fan,

    See attached PDF for progress as of Aug/08.

    Got some new pics from ***** today showing they did some painting.

    cheers
    rself
     

    Attached Files:

  7. boat fan
    Joined: Sep 2008
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    Location: Australia

    boat fan Senior Member

    WOW Robert !

    I bet you are glad to see those photos.

    Macnorton Penney !

    I like anything junk rigged. Is the wood local hardwood ?

    Great pics thanks .:cool:
     
  8. robert self
    Joined: Dec 2006
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    Location: seattle

    robert self Junior Member

    Hi boat fan,
    Yes strip planked with local grown 'western red cedar', meaning that the trees are grown somewhere in SE asia and not imported from western north america. Hardwood and plywood also local. The marine grade looked high quality to me. Did not see any voids.
     
  9. robert self
    Joined: Dec 2006
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    robert self Junior Member

    RB does not pocket $6 million

    Hi Been.done,

    Your statement implys that ***** puts 6 million in his own bank account. In fact most of that gross sales amount goes to wages and materials. If I'm wrong on this I hope a boatbuilder will set me straight.

    Boat building is a low profit margin business. Say 10% profit margin. That means that 600,000 over 5 years (you think boats get built instantly) goes to ***** and 5.4 million goes to wages and materials. Say 45% wages and 45% materials. That's 2.4 million going to *****'s Thai workers directly, in the office, shop floor, and a to few non-Thais like you. Of course there are taxes, bribes, attorney fees. Corrupt Thais got to eat too.

    What about materials? Thai companys and workers are also supplying those. So some portion of the 2.4 million for cedar, hardwoods, plywood, fiberglass, epoxy, vinyl ester, tools, paint,....on and on, involves Thai people getting a wage.

    ***** ********** is no saint. He is just as greedy as the rest of us. But unless been.done has a Thai business as large as RB corp, my guess is that there are alot more Thai people who will rally around *****, then been.done.

    cheers
    rself
     
  10. kengrome
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    Location: Gulf Coast USA

    kengrome Senior Member

    Robert,

    The only location in the world that I'm aware of where Western Red Cedar is grown is in the Pacific Northwest USA and Canada. It is not a tropical specie by any stretch of the imagination, and and most of SE Asia is tropical, so I strongly disbelieve that he used WRC sourced from SE Asia.

    Maybe ***** used Japanese Cedar instead? It is common in eastern Asia (not Southeast Asia) and that's the closest specie I can think of to WRC that grows natively in Asia at all.

    Of course Paulownia (Kiri) is not a similar specie but it is lightweight and soft so it has these similarities to WRC. It has been grown for literally hundreds of years in plantations in China and Southeast Asia, and more recently in Australia. Perhaps ***** used Paulownia in your hull?
     
  11. boat fan
    Joined: Sep 2008
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    Location: Australia

    boat fan Senior Member


    Good to hear that the plywood was good Robert .I spoke to someone recently who complained that the plywood that was available was " poor " quality.
    He was comparing to Australian made plywood.We do have good stuff here.
     
  12. RB PowerSailing
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Location: Thailand

    RB PowerSailing Senior Member

    RB Power & Sailing

    Mr. Robert ,

    10 % profit ???!! if this would be the case , i would rather sell the yard and spend my time playing badminton ...

    Any yard got a minimum profit of 35 % before taxes .

    On small project till 45' the profit must be around 45 % min . ( before taxes ) .

    =======================================================

    Dear Robert Self ,

    You are a respected customer of RB Power & Sailing ; anyway pls notice that your investigations and speculations are not necessary , correct or appreciated .

    T 60 : the client decided to change the motor , a bit more powerful and with a CE compliance that Yanmar could not provide with the first one. There is no delay with the delivery . Pls notice .


    Tiki 38 n1 : Mr. Creed , the owner , is a good friend of mine and he will join me to complete and sail his boat , as soon as he will recover from a damned serious health problem . The Yard is just waiting for him , at his convenience , to join the team and work together on the project and his completion .

    Tiki 38 n2 : team at work full time and ahead of schedule .

    Regards


    RB Power and Sailing

    www.*******************
     
  13. RB PowerSailing
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Location: Thailand

    RB PowerSailing Senior Member

    RB Power & Sailing

    Dear Mr. Graham Rivens and All readers ,

    after a couple of years , my wife invited me to the movie.

    Nice , modern and very cold place , in a large shopping center in Pattaya .

    Will Smith , boring and out of shape , let me say . Save the 199 baht , better .

    Anyway , the story is another one .

    The place was just packed , i don't know exactly but a few hundreds of persons , watching and listening .

    Everybody was quiet and careful , not to bother the neighbours .

    Only a man was very noisy . noisy laughs ,2 or 3 telephone calls ,loud to ask the popcorn to the girlfriend , bothering just everybody , the hundreds , the silent ones .

    an idiot , that all of us , unfortunately , can meet just everywhere , around the world .

    Now , reading Mr. Graham post , 'where are my happy customers' , and so on , i was thinking about that day at the movie .

    This forum is very similar , don't you think ?

    So many educated and quiet persons , reading and watching . The silent ones .

    But even here there is a noisy one : guess who is , Mr. Graham !


    This is the answer and the point : nice guys are not that noisy .. that's all . Obvious ...


    Relating the value of a forum as this one ..... just zero . This website that gave space to this collection of calumnies, offences and defamations ,without any respect to the privacy of a person , is just a shame . I am happy anyway to have found some nice and correct persons , as Kengrome .

    i have been discussing the issue with our lawyers and RB group decided to proceed legally in any country , against calumnies and defamations , of the past and -hopefully not - for the future . Even in Thailand finally IP traces are now a legal way to identify the author of any post . Every offence to the country of Thailand will be reported as well .

    Personally i wanted to avoid this , and i wrote 3 times to the webmaster of Boat Design . net , without success .


    Good night to everybody !

    RB
     
  14. sctpc
    Joined: Jul 2008
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    Location: Melbourne

    sctpc Junior Member

    Well you have also produced no evidence proving you are building professional boats, and for no proffit (10%) and free storage god you must be the most careing person on the planet .

    But I do agree this Thread has seen its day and should be closed down.
     

  15. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
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    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    Hold on there ... just as the people that are complaining have not provided any proof, neither have you.

    We asked to see the contract that proved that you were wrong, and no one has done so.

    You have not posted details of the contracts in question either.

    Now you say:

    You are a respected customer of RB Power & Sailing ; anyway pls notice that your investigations and speculations are not necessary , correct or appreciated

    I'll give you a language barrier credit, but if my boat builder posted that to me in a public forum, the builder would never see another dime.

    If one of your customer's goes looking and asking about your reputation, it is YOUR FAULT, for not keeping him informed.

    If the boat is going to be late, the customer deserves to know as soon as you do that the schedule will not be met. The customer should know the reason also. Informed customers are happy customers. Happy Customers come to your defence, they do NOT remain silent.

    Now you threaten legal action against people that vent in intenet forums?

    Your money will be better spent hiring someone that knows how to keep customers happy than wasted trying to silence those that complain.

    Good luck, I knew there was a reason I never considered having a boat built in Asia.

    R
     
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