sail/cargo ship old/new

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by ironmatar, Aug 30, 2008.

  1. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Yes rwatson, I agree mainly with you (a part the speed; the freighters are nowadays pretty fast, just at the point of the drag curve where putting more power doesn't give any significant gain in speed. The problems of leeway and stability remain also as the center of gravity is relatively high. Any tacking for a freighter means loss of time; I imagine tacking with a 300.000 tons freighter-smile I'm joking).

    The ciphers given are not really representative of the exploitation of a cargo boat. Not a word about maintenance, and aging of the rotors. All on a very slow boat, slower than a 1944 Liberty ship, so slow that nobody can use it as freighter. Can you imagine now a freighter with only 7 knots?

    Thanks for the other links. The mystery remains; why there are no more of these boats? what were the problems? It's impossible to find objective documentation on the subject.

    You have put the finger on the reasons of the last launched boat; it's owned by a company heavily involved in wind energy and being german I guess the company got public big funds on the project. The curious points is the boat is owned, not by a professional of boat shipping but by a windmill company...??? To build a boat just for transporting windmills? It's an economical nonsense. The PDF is a little marvel of advertising claims.

    The surface of the rotors is pretty small and some affirmations bother me; the ciphers are too nice. I would prefer to read; the global savings will be 3.5% after return of investment in 7 years than a marvelous claim of 30% on fuel. I can say that any shipping company would invest to get 3.5% savings... Any ship owner will give his daughters and mother for 1.5%.

    The German policy is to explore all the alternative energy sources; Germany has little and dirty fossil sources, the Green Party is a strong component of the political life, and nuclear energy is banned. Germany is making very heavy investments on alternative energy. They can't invade a country to get fuel.

    Maybe we'll see a true documentation published after the trials of the new boat, and finally know if it's valuable.
     
  2. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I think schooners of the several thousand ton range are entirely possible in the next twenty years. And I think they will look very much like the ones of yore. Complete with gaff sails and bowsprits.

    The difference is that they will be quite automated, have extremely accurate navigation systems, have access to real time weather maps, and have modest but efficient engines to motor through calms. They may be equipped to carry containers, but will service short runs and shallower waters where it is uneconomic to run large container ships.

    In short, I expect them to start out where the last sailing ships left off.

    I don't expect them to spread much further because the effect that size has on shipping economics (the larger the ship, the less per ton it costs to run) and putting sails on just about anything over, say, 5,000 tons starts to get troublesome from an engineering standpoint

    Sail powered, or at least assisted, commercial fishing vessels might look attractive again in the next few decades, as the peak oil situation becomes more firmly entrenched and liquid fuel prices skyrocket, just as fish stocks dwindle, putting an impossible economic squeeze on high energy imput fishing.

    Such modern schooners might have considerably less sail area than their grand parents as the sailing would be done primarily when there was good wind and the engine or motor would be there to take up the slack. such vesels should be that much easier to work (no topsails, no flying jibs, and somewhat shorter spars.)
     
  3. dsuursoo
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    dsuursoo Senior Member

    of course, you're still going to need those big diesel powered, 35-50kt freighters for time-sensitive cargo.

    so only for non-sensitive cargo, which is, what, a bit less than half the cargo shipped, would sails/rotors/oars/hamsters/slavegalleys/unicornfarts be applicable, much less accepted.

    i'd like to know how the container method of shipping will work with sails. boomless foresails on schooners? still gotta get the crane in there.

    side-loading, like on aircraft? sure, but forget about shipping containers.

    and let's not forget the time issue, again. the typical method of runnning cargo from a major port to small towns(even coastal) typically involves rail, sometimes trucks. but usually rail. your average schooner might make 15kts, best speed.

    average diesel locomotive, hauling twice the cargo even the biggest schooner could? about what, 45 kts?

    economics still doesn't work. the modern ways of shipping came about out of simplicity.

    manufacturer loads cargo into container, then seals container. container is driven/shipped to port in a couple of hours. container is loaded onto boat, typical wait time, at most, maybe a week. container transits ocean, assume a week to ten days. container is offloaded, put on train. run by rails to nearest terminal, shipped by truck perhaps 100 miles at most in two hours. taken to destination, unloaded.

    or, you take a month on the wind-driven vessel, mainly because of typical speed.

    yes, the economy can adapt. orders can be placed further ahead. more inventory can be held, at greater cost, requiring more storage facilities, more personnel, and then there's the lack of surety about the supply being able to meet the demand. you have materials and goods running out of stock constantly, because with the enhanced wait times, retailers are unable to accurately predict needs.

    the current economy runs primarily on a 'just in time' model, which lowers capital costs and allows business to run in a much smoother, more efficient, reliable fashion.

    running goods by sail would require much larger numbers of ships, running more often, requiring more crew, more insurance, more cost, etc.

    even for running it down coasts.

    small island nations such as polynesian nations have a fairly efficient way in place. they barge their container goods in. it's also done in much of southeast alaska.

    and i say, peak oil? eh? considering we're still finding fields, the old wells we thought were tapped are slowly coming back, and the possibility that oil production is biotic are throwing doubt on that. the whole surge in oil prices was mainly because of the perception that there will be a shortage in the near term.

    improvements in technology are allowing us to extract more oil from the wells, because we're able to extend the pipes further in(current tech only allows us to use about 20-40% of the oil in the pocket), which is one of the factors driving price back down.
     
  4. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    But we are still barely keeping up with demand even now. And these new technologies usually require more energy input, reducing the energy 'payback' ratio. Some, if not a lot of this oil, may end up downright inaccessible. The main problem is not so much running out as it is running behind ever growing demand. I think better explanations for the recent 'pull back' in crude prices are:
    1.) People in the USA are driving less, (You wouldn't believe the number of adults I have seen riding bicycles and rigging them to carry things) and
    2.) such drop in consumption has caused speculators to bail, further dropping demand (I expect to see them all back again this Winter as heating oil demand surges)


     
  5. dsuursoo
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    dsuursoo Senior Member

    fair points. the other problem with the new tech is that you have to drill a new line down. i ask why we can't just start pumping water down there, since the oil will float to the top(it's how they get oil out of the strategic reserve).

    but i don't think sail-transited goods will be happening in your life or mine. the fusion problems are only a few years away from being solved(neutron embrittlement is the last major hurdle, they've already sustained reactions), once that happens, i think the big push will be for the first world to start making most of their power that way. away goes a huge energy demand, oil-wise. between that and the rising popularity of hybrid and hyper-efficient cars, i think the container ships will remain viable.

    and oh, yeah, panamax container ships can hit 50. i didn't believe it till i rode on one as a sea marshall years ago. they can't do it for long, sustained speeds are between 30-40. but oh yes, they can hit it. really amazing.
     
  6. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Wish I could have been aboard with you. That must have been cool.

     
  7. dsuursoo
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    dsuursoo Senior Member

    yes, it was. kind of like being in a sports car. the acceleration was rather noticable.
     
  8. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    I guess the first step to an alternate cargo delivery system is to ask a freight broking firm if there are any goods that need delivering that either
    dont go by container or are hard to get someone to deliver because of the awkward location and/or low demand.

    If there is no demand then there is no need of the service. Once the potential market is identified, then someone could do a business plan based on anticipated demand.

    Naaah - thats all too hard, lets talk about cold fusion that is coming to save our asses real soon now! :)
     
  9. dsuursoo
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    dsuursoo Senior Member

    trouble is, i can't think of any large freight company willing to transit unsealed goods. one of the main reasons the containers came about was because of pilfering during shipping/loading processes. it was more secure, faster load and unload, and standard in size.

    and so far as fusion goes, they've already hit breakeven and beyond in japan. we know we can do it, the question is, can we do it and not have the reactor fail because of neutron bombardment of the metal parts lining the inside making them brittle and radioactive. i say coat the works with graphite and run water around the whole thing(also extract heat from the reaction).

    sure, it might not happen on a boat, but on land, no problem. safer than fission, if you breach the reactor or make it go into a runaway reaction, it'll only run for a few minutes, then poof, reaction goes out. it can't sustain without containment because there won't be enough mass to create a dense gravity well. so once your containment fails, or is shut down, all you get is a bit of heat and everyone in the plant talks really high pitched.
     
  10. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Hence the attraction, hence the dream. Almost like money for nothing. It's kept a lot of white suits working and it may lead to other, more practical discoveries. Hence I support it. I just don't see it panning out. Too much energy needed to CONTAIN the reaction, which goes up in direct proportion to the SIZE of the reaction, which, seems to me, limits its 'payback' proportion to an almost microscopic level.

    Could be a nifty way to make helium, though. Zepplins, anybody?

    Won't the neutrons eventually destroy the graphite?
     
  11. dsuursoo
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    dsuursoo Senior Member

    actually, fun fact, breakeven has been attained under controlled circumstances at several different facilities. ITER is going to produce net gain electricity.

    the fun part of the tokamak is that the plasma becomes part of the containment , reducing the need for containment(the electrical current induced in the plasma by its motion through the magnetic containment produces a repulsing field that collapses the plasma further. those clever russians...)

    yeah the neutrons would eventually wear out the graphite, but much slower than they'd wear out regular metals.
     
  12. Kay9
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    Kay9 1600T Master

    Rwatson, that was perfect.

    As I pointed out at the beginning of this, everytime gas gose up $0.20 someone wants "SAILS" to come back. I also stated that everytime we point out why this will not happen economically. However it never fails, that an arguement will finnaly break out about, just how this should be done, and weather or not the sails should be made out of dacron and hung with a non-luffing head sheet....or a sampsonbraid buttspliced dingle mast.

    I get it. Im an idiot.

    You will of course pardon me for not responding further to these posts about sail powered merchant vessels. I have to go study up on my bridge resource management tests.
     
  13. dsuursoo
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    dsuursoo Senior Member

    you know what else makes great sense from a gas savings standpoint?

    zeppelins.
     
  14. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Darn you Kay9 - I thought I had misdirected the thread beautifully into the nether regions of quantum physics.

    Now, dont forget to include the reference to the "sampsonbraid buttspliced dingle mast" in your exam paper. Oh, by the way, let them know there wont be bridges in the "new wave" wind powered cargo ships. They will all be steered by remote control from a 10 year olds bedroom.

    Now, back to locating these cargoes that will finance the new wave of cargo ships .....

    PS - dsursoo, this is the air powered ship thread, not the airsship thread. A small difference in spelling I grant you, but important I think. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2008

  15. ironmatar
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    ironmatar Junior Member

    well fuel has gone up by more tan 10 cents or 20 cents, more like 10's of dollars in the last few months alone, and i thank yea all for the various links and comments and things, the various solid sails have been very interesting to say the least.
    fusion power has so far not been successful as a enterprise for energy production, and perhaps it will or will not become a new energy base only time will tell.
    in any case there seems to be in general a lot of arguments against sail power, and in reply i offer this it is a solution to pollution problems that are present with big crude burning engines, and yes i know that cars are the main source of burnt hydrocarbons pollution along with oil and coal burning energy plants, but to me there is only 1 thing that matters really, its the right thing to do to help out.
    Ironmatar
     
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