Hardware

What would you recommend for someone just starting in terms of hardware? Like what brand ect. computer? Apple vs what?
I've heard that much software is not compatible with Apple so guidance would be appreciated.
Have designed many sailboats the old fashioned way........I know-it's about time....
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It's also very important that I am able to run the software necessary to learn to do excellent renderings of my designs...

 

I personally have chosen a PC over a Mac because there is so much more software available for Windows. I also like the freedom of choice (and corresponding $ value) PC's offer vs. being locked into one supplier (Apple) - the historical flipside is that with Mac's you are guaranteed 100% compatibility, but Windows has been perfect for me since Windows 2000 added hardware support to the robust NT core. XP has run flawlessly for me so far - no complaints to date. I do admire OSX and the design of mac's themselves, but freedom of choice, value, and software selection makes my vote heavily in favor of the PC/windows platform for actual use.

Of the software listed here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82 only TouchCad and Maxsurf have Mac versions I believe (I might be corrected as I'm not a Mac guy, and if so, thanks in advance, but I believe that is the case) and both also have PC versions.

As far as computer brands, the only one I would say to avoid at all costs is Compaq (and now HP since they've merged). They make nice servers, but their home PC's, especially the low cost ones, are built with poor components and come loaded with too much junk to be stable. If I get a call from a friend asking for help with some weird glitch, I can bet money that they are calling about a Compaq (and I'll be right 7 times out of 10 )

On a budget I would probably consider a Dell. They offer a good value, I haven't had any problems with them, and they come with a fairly clean install in my experience which is an asset.

Make sure to get at least 512 MB of RAM and make sure it's expandable later on to 1 GB or more. 1 GB is better once you get into heavy graphics, but you can buy it later from a third party for a noticeable savings and it's easy to snap in - just make sure the motherboard supports greater amounts of RAM as this will be the first limiting factor on a graphics machine now that CPU's are pretty quick.

You'll also want a nice OpenGL graphics card and not a video card which shares main system memory. (my personal choice was a 3D labs wildcat VP560 for budget, but this was a year ago and a fairly tame choice, so others will probably jump in with more up to date recommendations.) You can always add a better video card later without much trouble if you're on a budget to start too.

 

im with jeff. PC running windows is the sure bet. Also means you can use your computer for other things other than just designing, without all the compatibililty problems.
Linux is the software i would normally recommend, but as far as i know, none of the good software runs under linux, so windows it has to be unfortunately.

Maxsurf does have a mac version, and was originally written to run on mac computers. it was then released with a windows version a short while ago, few years, not sure exactly how many, 4 or 5.

As far as hardware itself goes. ive worked with many premade computers from compaq to dell, to good old fashioned IBM, and over the years, ive come to realise, if you want a PC that does exactly what you want it to do, and be very reliable, then the only way to go is to knock one together yourself. Now i realise, this is not always a favoured option, especially for the non computer people, idea of putting one together is not something they fancy, and quite right, but there are many places that will build one for you, you just tell them exactly what you want, and how much you want to spend. Dell, HP etc will try and sell you a computer thats "right for you" but if you are on a budget, you often end up paying for things you dont need. like DVD recorders, soundblaster live cards etc, which are not needed and jack the prices up a lot, also often got their hands in so many hardware manufacturers pockets that you dont really have a choice in what hardware you have. Usually you have to have Intel processors, have to have SIS chipsets etc etc.
Id go along to a local computer store, not a big chain, but a local small company, they often much better and usually know more about computers than most of the just out of school teenagers you often find at big places.
Tell them exactly what you want, and have them price one for you.
Id say for what you want, graphics, processor and memory are key.
good graphics card is required, one that can render properly. Most premade computers have onboard graphics built into them, these are fine for every day use, but when you want to render something, they just dont have what it takes and at best, give you a nasty looking image that you could have painted with a 6inch brush neater, or the computer will just freeze.
Go with at least 64mb graphics card, ATi i would recommend. Which one you would do better to ask, as there are so many and often intended for different uses such as games, or design, fairly price friendly too.

Personally i would go with an AMD processor. Ive found them to be more reliable than Intel, and a lot cheaper. Especially the newer ones which are miles ahead of intel anyway. most design software doesnt need huge processors to run, used to run Maxsurf on an old 586 without any problems, newer versions probably need more, especially when you get into the serious rendering and multiple shapes. So id look at something around the 1.8ghz or bigger. so cheap these days its not really a question of price.
Memory your going to need a bit of. if you are running XP, you are going to need at least 256mb. XP is very resource hungry anyway, and i would go for 512mb myself, to avoid any problems and make it fairly future proof for future software upgrades. Brand doesnt really matter, memory is memory. some worry about brand, but ive used many different brands and all done the same job fine.

You can then save a lot of money by not worrying about big sound cards. simple onboard SIS or soundblaster sound would be fine, and usually dirt cheap or included anyway.
Obviously a good CD rom, and for the money, might as well make it a CD writer to allow you to back up designs etc. Dont need to worry about DVD players etc.

Good size monitor is where i would spend what you saved by doing it yourself. 19inch monitor that can display millions of colours and high resolution. You can go for the flat panel monitors, but thats not essential, good old fashioned tube monitor does just fine. Flat panels i find are still in the development stages. Often cant see them unless you look direct at them, and tend to distort in sunlight etc, best to save the money and not bother, your going to need it to buy the software.

doing it this way also makes it very easy to upgrade in the future. Some computer companies like compaq use their own hardware, and dont follow standard sizes, which means to upgrade you have to buy their hardware and their price. Doing it custom style means you have a whole number of future upgrades you can get without having to worry about if it will fit. Ebay is the best source for stuff like that.

Maxsurf i believe is around $5000, i may be wrong, i havnt looked into it in the states, i know a few years back it was around £8000 for a good version. in the UK. Ive always used Maxsurf and AutoCAD so cant really comment on the other software around.

hope thats some help

 

When it comes to Mac or Windows I would say that it is a matter of taste. The Windows side clearly provides more options in software though the relevant question is: Does it have the software you actually want and need? After all, how likely is it that you would install 100,000 programs on your computer.

For the Mac there are two hull fairing programs available, MaxSurf and TouchCAD. TouchCAD is however the only Mac OSX program. It is also available in a Mac OS Classic if you use an older Mac. Besides the usual marine design essentials such as dynamic cross sectioning, hydrostatic calculations etc. TouchCAD also provides powerful general purpose freeform modeling abilities and I typically do most of the modeling in TouchCAD rather than using a separate modeler of CAD program. It simply takes me from A to B quicker and it is useful to be able to do the weight and center of gravity calculation within the program. TouchCAD also provides a very powerful built in parametric unfolding engine. www.touchcad.com

As for CAD on the Mac there are also several options. The clear market leader on the Mac side is VectorWorks, which provides very good 2D drafting abilities, 3D solid modeling, rendering, animation, build it spreadsheet and database abilities, import and export to and from AutoCAD 2004, import and export of pictures, good compatibility with illustration programs, IGES in/out, and so on. Where I live it costs less than AutoCAD LT, so it is definitely my choice for working drawings. I typically do most of the 3D modeling in TouchCAD though the combination works very well for me. www.nemetschek.net

As for rendering and visualization there are MANY options available for the Mac. Besides the built in OpenGL rendering in TouchCAD and VectorWorks I mostly use Artlantis, which tends to take you from A to B quicker than any other programs I have tested. I also use Cinema 4D and RenderWorks, which is an add-on within VectorWorks and Strata.

I also use PhotoShop for various image processing. www.adobe.com

All these programs are also available for Windows, so it is essentially a matter of taste which operating system you prefer.

Personally I much prefer Macs. I think it is easier to use, the security is much higher, there are fewer hardware conflicts, and so far there have been recorded a grand total of TWO viruses for Mac OSX since it came out! In other words, a Mac without virus protection is safer than a Wintel with it.

If you want to take a closer look of what is available for the Mac I would recommend you to go to www.apple.com and look for Made4Mac. Most programs available for Macs are listed here (I think it is something like 10-20,000 programs).

 

I believe the bottom line is that while there _are_ programs available for the Mac platform, there are more and CHEAPER programs available for the PC. Many are free...

Steve

 

More - yes of course.

Cheaper - not necessarily.

There are lots of shareware and freeware for Macs too. It is also my impression that Mac programs tend to be more well written and the developers tend to pay more attention to being user friendly and consistent with platform standards.

 

oh geez
here we go, mac boys vs pc boys. its always a debate.
I say everyone should run Linux and forget about all the corporate Operating systems. but thats a different story

but from the original thread, id say this is someone who wants to learn, and to be honest, id say its easier to learn on a Windows based point and click system pc than it is with Macs or even linux. Just plain easier. more help is available, its more widely used, and more commonly supported, and your not limited to just a couple of softwares.

Im not going to say which is better, cause hardcore mac people wont hear different and hardcore pc people wont hear different, but from a learning point of view, PC is easier to grasp, then later on, when you got it down pat and know a lot more, upgrade to something else.

 

In a way I do agree with one of the mac arguments - for a first time computer buyer it's no doubt easier to buy a Mac because there is a far narrower window of choice available, and thus less likilood that you will get taken by a bad salesman. I've seen a lot of PC people who buy really cheap components and expect them to perform flawlessly - for example yesterday I helped a friend who was having trouble with a $9 winmodem installed in their HP/Compaq - when I explained that the drivers were very poor and recommended they get a $65 hardware modem and solve their problem once and for all, they said "but I just bought this ($9 modem) - how can it be bad already?" However, with a little care to read reviews before buying and not simply going for the very cheapest, I haven't had any compatibility problems with my windows machines in years.

I also think ease of use is 99.9% due to familiarity - or rather, I'm much more concerned with productivity after a month of use than how easy something is to use right out of the box. I personally find windows easier to use than a VCR now - I don't know what more I could ask. If I had been using a mac for years, I'm sure I would find macs easier to use now but I'm confident I could adjust to either within a month or so. Where the same software exists for both (e.g. photoshop) I don't know that there's any difference in ease of use or productivity at all.

I'm not a mac guy, so I have to confess that I haven't kept up with mac software versions -- has anything changed since Andrew Mason said this a year ago?

I'm not sure from a quick look at their site, but your statement:

leads me to believe it is still true.

If so, it would seem the answer is this: if your primary boat design software of choice is TouchCAD, consider a MAC. If it's anything else, Windows is the logical choice.

 

One more thought - if you do go with a PC, for some of the expensive options/add-ons, it's useful to price components at a site like www.pricewatch.com so you have an idea of what you could buy them yourself for (often now the base PC is priced to corner the market, and companies make a healthy profit on add-ons like RAM/extra drives/etc. that in reality you can add yourself in under 15 minutes) (also consulting sites like www.resellerratings.com if in doubt about the quality of a given merchant of course to see how their service is.)

Sites like www.anandtech.com, www.tomshardware.com, and www.2cpu.com are also useful sources of general hardware reviews and benchmarks.

 

Computer madness

Thanks to all of you! And particularly Jeff for the info on researching the machines.
I just spent two hours"building" a machine on the Dell site and because I have web tv lost it all before being able to put it in my "wish list".
Damn thats annoying! You have to have a Dell to shop for a Dell-geez!
So far my webmaster has said if I get a Mac -don't call him again and my brother has said if I get a PC he'll disown me...
But I'm 99% convinced that a PC is the way to go especially since one of the programs (a vpp for rc models) I want is only compatable with pc's.
Again, thank you all for the help-now -soon- the next stage: teaching myself how to use the thing-I feel another thread coming...

 

I agree that the debate is pretty hopeless. Most people simply tend to prefer what they are used to, and most people tend to avoid learning something new.

To give a fair judgment you have to use both systems extensively. Clicking on the screen for five minutes on the other side does not tell you something.

I use both systems in my work though I much prefer Macs.

Another way of looking at is to look at some big surveys done in very large organizations. The results so far indicate that Macs costs more to buy but requires less support and maintenance, resulting a in a significantly lower total cost per station throughout the life-span of the machine.

In the best of worlds, Linux would be ideal. In reality though it is nowhere near the ease of use of both Mac and Windows, and I would only recommend it for big organizations with a huge staff of men in white coats.

 

It should perhaps be pointed out that a TouchCAD license is cross platform and you can run it on either side.

 

finally bought an dual core lidl vista pc but even with that processor and the extra gig mem (upgradable to 8 gig i see) vista premium slower than xp, and guess more 64 bit compatibility problems to come installing the softside.

strangely the targa pc comes without booklet on the motherboard or any of the components, a remote control and wireless usb stick, sort of like a media center i guess. have a bleutooth and other sticks and think there is a hub (card?) available to hook up a dozen sticks? ah, noticed before and dont ask why but here i read bluetooth shoud only plug in at the front

on a budget i'm now looking at a tft monitor, a flatscreen tv can do also over the new hdmi plug i guess? time to start reading pc mags again and may gonna hear you should have gone for a home media center pc, hdmi replaces video scart and vga? its learning again

making dogs (wheels) under my desk now for easy rear acces and sure like to hear how you guy's have your pc's set in the year 2008