The Raid Boat

I wonder if a Bruce foil would allow more sail to be carried. A couple of years back I tried one on a really small kayak (less than 10 ft) which was able to handle 15 sq ft on a 7 ft mast without problems, I imagine it could be scaled up. My little boat went like a rocket on a reach or a run, white water up to my elbows, I'd guess upwards of 4 knots. A longer hull would exceed hull speed no problem.

Upwind is another matter, it did not have enough speed or agility to tack reliably, but in any case it will always faster to row/paddle upwind in a canoe or kayak.

 

Nick,

I hate to get too deep into this as I'm relying on a fairly hazy memory. I'll send Dan a note of this interest.

I believe Dan had a drain aft that had to be blocked off. Some of the boats carry a two-piece spare oar, some put them aboard one of the mother ships. I don't recall Dan's system that year. In practice this works well as in recent years the boats are quite close together or in small groups with a mother for each group.

I really don't have any idea about the overall stiffness change; the boat seems very stiff when you pick it up. The tiny unstayed rig is very low stress.

There are no "industry" or "movement" wide rules for Raid Boats, that may come in future. I do like to see some form of positive floatation in the boats, but few (if any) carry ballast in our Raid and thus will float quite high anyways. Permanent positive floatation in traditional boats (air or foam tanks) is not really a good idea, even if it was possible. I accept drybags lashed into the boat as floatation. It's also my decision as to who races what, thus I can require whatever I like if there's reason for concern. Mostly I watch carefully and stick close to the nubes.

Tad

 

Tad ; thanks for the response

I think the whole raid concept it great - I love the water but lying around on beaches doesn't really do it for me.
-I thought that one of the Raid boat concepts was that the boats be self sufficent; ie carry every thing required!
-It would seem as though a capsize and recovery would be a good Raid requirement, at least in these boat sizes. This would have to be with the realization that a calm bay bears no relation to central channel conditions.
- Siding seats. If you are going to require a sailing leg, it seams as if the only one that would penalize the skinny narrow boat crowed would be a windy day; hard to arrange where you are. On the other hand on a no wind day nobody is going anywhere. When we chartered a boat in the San Jauns, many years ago, fiends commented it was like motor homing with their parents - we only had one sailing day in the week. And the time we spent there this summer I dont remember any wind except when we were on the west coast of vancouver island.
-Do you limit the number of entries? The numbers at this point are not enough to have classes; ie. sliding seats etc
Thanks Nick

 

Nick,

The boats in Raid Finland and in the Swedish Raid do not carry any of their camping gear, etc. They have baggage boats which follow along. I've always pushed people to carry all their own gear, which they have. But I also try to be accommodating and helpful, as I said in practice a spare oar close by works well. Last year, 07, we had one boat (one crewman!) which broke many oars, some of which were repaired along the way. The second place boat last year also broke their mast the night before the final day's crossing of Jan De Fuca. They spent the night repairing it aboard one of the motherships and went on to win the next day. I vidio of this I hope to get on youtube sometime.

Last year I had one entry who built a new Ness yawl to enter in the 07 Raid. After finishing the boat he went for a trial sail and capsized. The next day he withdrew his entry, which was best for all concerned. In 05 we had some fairly rough weather and one boat (15' dory) had problems but did not capsize. Generally we have mostly very experienced people with perhaps one or two inexperienced boats competing. Thus I know where I need to be in the rough stuff. No capsizes so far......let’s keep it that way!

As you say a calm water on-purpose capsize with the boat empty of gear would bear no resemblance to the real thing in exposed open water. I do not expect anyone to right themselves and keep sailing after a capsize in these waters. Its not Florida, the water is very cold, as is the wind even in summer. I know that I have to get alongside a capsized boat in minutes and I'll have to pull people out of the water, that's implicit. Testing stability is all that could be accomplished in a calm water capsize. And I agree it would be interesting, but of little practical value during the raid.

The sliding seats are pretty much in a class of their own in normal rowing/sailing legs, they pull ahead at the beginning and then just sit there. In a sailing only leg they have to sail and oars cannot be used. Thus the boats cannot go too far in one direction. Conjure is an example, in the sailing only legs in 07 she was totally outclassed. My handicapping system did not work perfectly because the wind did not cooperate.

Yes, we usually have had very light to no wind, which has been frustrating for many. For 08 we are changing both route and date in hopes of more sailing, among other things.

Splitting the boats into separate classes doubles my workload, this is to be avoided. The entry numbers seem to self limit at about 10 boats per year. This seems a good size group, if it gets too big people split off into factions. I don't limit entries but I will if I get more than 12-15 entries, that's too many to worry about.

Tad

 

Ok lets give this another bump -- kick . I think that I am on record some where above as saying that a Raid is the most fun you can have with your clothes on, yes I'm champing at the bit to go do them ALL. But no boat yet. I have started lofting but I will be lucky If I make next year. But - Tad , I'm getting worried - I am seeing no action on the Ship Yard Raid site. I hope I this does not signal an early end to west coast raiding. I'm used to being alittle odd but the fact that you are only getting about 10 entries year is making me feel down right perverted. I'd come paddle a log if it would help keep it going but I'm going to be in England showing my daughter all the Swallows and Amazon's sights I grew up with. Wild Cat island , Cormerant island, Rio etc.

Now someone did give a very ugly Flying Dutchman hull last week - I wonder how it would row - Ketch rig, bow sprit. Giant asimetrical cruising shoot. humm

Nick

 

Hello Nick,

No worries mate....the Shipyard Raid goes on. We start June 28th 2008, on a new course north from Silva Bay finishing in 8 days (July 5th) in Heriot Bay on Quadra Island. This Raid will visit numerous Islands, Desolation Sound, and touch the BC mainland several times. There are some challenging open water crossings and some long days ahead. But it's going to be a really fine race in spectacular surroundings, with a group of the greatest people.

The fine thing about the Raid for me is that people keep coming back, they build new boats and find new crew and come back to place just a little better. This year we will have 9 boats starting including 2 Sea Scout groups.

The FD hull might be a grand Raider if you could keep her light. Carbon rig I think.....

 

raid goes on

Well I'll sleep well tonight! I 'll keep checking the Shipyard raid site. I knew about the new course in general; are going to publish details. Your headed for the big time of tidal currents- scary/ fun ? I would recomend Seakayakers "Deep Trouble' to the raiders. Many graphic examples of screwups in north-western waters. Our boats might be bigger but same water, currents and wind. I wrote a very long winded reply to an earlier post of yours -Tod, Fortunatly, for you all, I lost when I went to double cheak on attributing some thing to you. So I'll state it for my self - Raiding is to promote travel in small boats. As such I think that all raid boats should have self rescue capabilities. The old timers may have got away with alsorts of nasty weather but they had probly aquired more sea time by the time they were twenty than we will aquire in a life time; they ,generally , did not go to sea for fun; and , some of them drowned. Thus I think a Lemans style start off the beach with full camping gear, out to some point, capsize and recovery, land and pitch camp, boil 2 cups of water. Sort of like the time trial major bike races start with. Besides providing a great spectical for any shore side contingent it would hopefully be a shot of realism and result in increased caution by the raiders as a group. I can only imagine that at the very least gear would be better stowed / lashed afterwards. Make for some good TV too.
As for carbon fiber on the FD - you were thinking of wind surfer mast too or just the tiller extention??
Nick
Still only 10 people - that pretty weird - Maybe Powels Books is on to something - erotic literature is next to nautical literature

 

Nick,

Actually we're not going into any rapids or narrows on the new course. The previous year's route to Port Townsend took us through Gabriola Pass (7+ knots) on the first leg, now we avoid that hold up.

The "old timers" usually got into trouble because they were traveling alone. I grew up doing this, as a teenager I would routinely travel BC waters in a 12' open skiff. Yes, I had a lifejacket that I wore, I had an outboard and oars, and a bailing can, and a rock for an anchor. I did not have positive flotation (though the boat was of heavy wood construction), I did not have a radio, or flares, or GPS, or even a compass, the beach is right there for gods' sake! I knew I was on my own, or if I was lucky a fisherman might come along and help if he saw me. I did not expect the Coast Guard to rescue me, they were not around. Almost no one was around and that's why I was out there.

I was taking personal responsibility for my actions, a calculated risk just like stepping out onto a crosswalk. I expect those skippers entered in our Raid to do the same thing, but I will not lay down a bunch of arbitrary rules concerning self-rescuing. If a skipper is concerned about such issues, and if he is prudent, he will have gone through the scenario you suggest. But that is his concern.

One of the things I establish with all participants in our Raid is that they are responsible, at all times, for their own boat and actions. The only hard and fast rule is , "Don't hit anything".

I do keep our group as safe as possible by keeping all boats in sight (by at least one mothership) at all times. But boats are also free to choose a course that suits them and the tide/weather at the time. I often feel I'm mothering to closely, then I back off.

As you note, my problem is finding willing folks with any boat capable and qualified to undertake this adventure. More rules and requirements will cut into that pool considerably.

 

Shipyard Raid schedule starting in Silva Bay BC June 28th 2008, finish July 5th 2008.

Saturday 28th Lv. Silva Bay Arrv. Descanso Bay 9nm
Sunday 29th Lv. Descanso Bay Arrv. Jedediah Is 22 nm
Monday 30th Lv. Jedediah Is Arrv. Cape Cockburn (Nelson Is.) 13 nm
Tuesday 1st Lv. Cape Cockburn (Nelson Is.) Arrv. Westview/Powell River 17nm
Wednesday 2nd Lv. Westview Arrv. Copeland Is. (Lund) 14nm
Thursday 3rd Lv. Copeland Is. Arrv. Tenedos Bay (Desolation Sound) 11nm
Friday 4th Lv. Tenedos Bay Arrv. Mansons Landing (Cortes Is) 19nm
Saturday 5th Lv. Mansons Landing Finish at Heriot Bay (Quadra Is.) 9nm

 

I believe there was a RAID type event that just concluded, called the Texas 200, or something like that. The website says five consecutive 40 mile days in warm, protected waters with steady 15-20 knot winds and 85 degree F air temperatures.

That could be a lot of fun. Does anybody know anything else about it?

Eral

 

Well, I don't personally know anything about it, but here's a link:

http://www.texas200.com/