Freedom 33 - Is it really an ocean crosser?

Hello,

My wife and I in the market for a 33'-37' sail boat that we can do some extensive cruising with, including crossing large pieces of ocean (e.g. Halifax to Bermuda and onwards).

We really like the design of the Freedom 33 built by TPI, but overall we are unsure such a boat's capability to take to the open ocean.

Any thoughts, opinions, known passages made by F33s are welcomed.

Ryan Beck
Montréal, Canada

PS we are also interested in shallow draft aluminum built boats (e.g. OVNI 34). I'll post a separate thread on soliciting thoughts on that type of boat as well.

 

Hi Ryan,

I was Chief Engineer at TPI when we converted the Freedom 33 from a centerboarder to a keel boat. The centerboard took up too much interior room, and the overall weight was too high, and that is why we took the centerboard out and added the keel. The keel version is a much more seakindly boat than the centerboard version, so look for one of those.

The other thing to look at is the masts. The older carbon fiber masts experienced a lot of sufferficial cracking which, most of the time, goes only into the first layer of the outer fiberglass windings. These can be repaired, but you have to strip the masts of all their hardware and relaminate fiberglass cloth and epoxy around the mast to get rid of the cracks and restore the surface. Then refair and repaint.

I personally know of one Freedom 33 in Newport, RI, named Folly, that has done the Newport-Bermuda One-Two a couple of times. She's a good boat. I know of some others, only anecdotally, that have crossed the Atlantic. They were popular in England.

Good luck in your search.

Eric

 

Hello Eric,

Thanks for the prompt reply - and given your previous position with TPI, I would say that you are a great person to provide opinions on this matter.

The F33 that we are looking at is an '83 so it has the keel version. Interesting that you mention the surface cracks in the mast. A previous buyer that was interested in this F33 walked because they were concerned about these cracks. The story given by the broker, via TPI (or possibly the mast manufactuer) was that these cracks were cause by the fairing compound being more rigid than the mast itself and thereby cracking ensued. Does this sound like a possible explaination?

Again concerning the masts and cracking, is there a method by which one (including an expert) can determine if the cracking is surface level only or otherwise? Last question - should the cracks be determined to be surface level only - is any corrective action required, such as what you propose above, or is this only a visual concern and not structural?

I lied, one more question (!) between the F33 and the F36 (e.g '87 onwards), which in your opinion is better for long distance cruising for two people.

Much appreciated.

Ryan, Montréal, QC

 

In 1983, TPI was the mast manufacturer. The actual cause of the mast cracking is the glass fiber windings on the outside layer. When the masts were built, the last wrap of material was the band of twelve glass strands 1.25" wide that were wrapped onto the mast with a quarter inch overlap. There were no longitudinal strands in this layup. Note that the very first layer of material was an identical wrapping of glass, although we don't see too much cracking inside the mast--stresses are lower, and the environmental exposure is nil.

After the final wrapping, the mast was cured under cal-rod heaters, and then coated with a thick gelcoat. The masts then went through a sanding machine that did 3 grits of sanding in a single pass, and then they went to paint.

As the masts aged in the environment and as they flexed, cracks will appear in the microscopic spaces between the glass fiber strands, opening up circumferential cracks. Shrinkage of the gelcoat over time aggravated the problem. Usually, the cracks go down only through the glass layer and do not penetrated the carbon fiber unidirectional underneath. However, this is not guaranteed. Left too long, the carbon can crack as well, and this becomes a very serious problem.

The way to determine the depth and extent of the cracks is to peel back one of them and see if only the glass strands pull up. Probe deeper with a knife blade to see if there is a crack in the carbon. Hopefully, there is not.

Yes, corrective action is essential, for the reasons stated above. There is a long-term structural concern. I recommend taking off all the hardware, grinding off the entire outer layer of glass and gelcoat, rewinding a strip of fiberglass cloth, which has glass in two directions, all around the mast, using epoxy resin. Two layers will be better than one layer. Repaint the mast, and reattach the hardware.

If I had my drothers, I would definitely go for the Freedom 36--a much better boat.

Eric

 

Bringing this back up because I've seen an ad for a Freedom 35 built in 1985 by Western Approaches, UK.
Can anybody tell me:

-Were these built from (balsa) sandwich or only GRP?
-Is the quality comparable to the TPI - built ones?
-Have the masts been built by TPI or elsewhere?
-If cracks would extend into the carbon fibre, would that mean the whole masts would have to be replaced? That would be quite a project, I guess, and very expensive, I guess they would have to be custom made...or are there some original masts still lying around somewhere...?

and more general:
-How is the performance of the F35? I've read you shouldn't expect too much when going to windward, but can somebody give concrete examples? How about the seaworthyness?

I have no experience whatsoever with that kind of rig...I do like the idea behind it and the whole layout of the boat - but it feels a bit strange to think of going to sea with this heavy thing standing right at the bow...

 

Here a review for the Freedom 35:
http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/article/perry-design-review--freedom-35
Cheers.

 

Muchas Gracias, Guillermo, but I´m looking for the 1980s cat ketch designed by Gary Hoyt.
I´ve found an old review by Yachtworld...had to buy it, and it´s being sent to me by snail mail...see what that says...

 

Hi B.

I don't know for a fact that the boat would be built with balsa core, but it probably was. That would have been governed by the license agreement from Freedom Yachts, and plans and construction specifications would have been part of the deal. You would have had to follow the Freedom specs to be able to call it a Freedom Yacht.

I would not be able to state anything about the quality. Although the intent would be to produce the same quality, or better, being worse is just as likely, so I could not say one way or the other.

The masts would have been built by TPI and shipped to England. That was the agreement in 1981.

If mast cracking extended into the carbon fiber, yes, the best thing to do would be to replace the masts. There are builders here in the US that can do it. You can also get a quote for masts from Formula Spars in the UK. They have the technology to build replacement masts, although I don't know if they would have a suitable size of mandrel, or if they could make one. But it might be worth a call to them.

If the masts have two-ply wrap-around sails, the boat will likely not be as weatherly as if they have single ply sails with full battens. The shape of the hull forward has a fair bit of buoyancy to support the weight of the forward mast, so that is not really a problem. A number of F-33s, the US version, have crossed the Atlantic and sailed around the world, so they are generally good cruising boats.

Eric

 

Thanks a lot, Eric!
(I had hoped you would reply, but didn't want to bother you directly)
Can you give me a rough estimate how much a renewal of both masts would cost? I don't have the slightest idea, not even if its less than 10.000$ (OK, I guess not) or more than 30.000$ (I hope not, that would be getting close to the price of the boat...), no clue. And there are no price lists for carbon masts on the internet...

a bloody amateur

 

I don't have any recent direct quotes, but I would expect a replacement mast to be around US$15,000, give or take a couple of thousand. A general rule of thumb is roughly US$100 a pound. Weigh the mast and use that figure, and that will get you into the ball park. A new mast will likely be lighter than the original masts simply because of better technology that is available these days.

Eric

 

Hi Eric,
What do you think the life expectancy of carbon fiber masts is? Specifically the ones on freedom 33s.
Does anyone know anything about the Offshore 33 cat ketch or the Halsey Herreshoff 33' cat ketch?

 

The Freedom was well regarded in the UK as John Oakley did much to cement their reputation. However there are always a couple of other things (apart from being self standing cat ketches) that count against them here in our conservative market: The companionway is offset to starboard, they have a reputation for shedding their masthead aerials and lights and the nav station is forward. In total, these idiosyncrasies keep many people from considering them as options and hence they are probably undervalued.

Incidentally, the ex-John Oakley Freedom 35 did drop a mast last summer, but (IIRC) the replacment mast here in the UK was nowhere near as much as 15K US.

 

That's good info, Crag, thanks.

Well-kept masts should last the life of the boat. There was plenty of safety factor designed into the rigs. I joined TPI in 1980, just at the time they were converting from aluminum masts to carbon fiber masts. So the oldest masts now are approaching 30 years old. To date, I am not aware of any aging or fatiguing failures.

The Offshore 33s were designed by Yves Tanton, and I think he was even a partner in their construction. They had their own filament winding machine to make the masts. I am not aware of any offshore 33 rigs coming down, and the few O33s I have seen seem to sell pretty quickly.

As for the Herreshoff 33s, I designed those masts. The Herreshoff cat ketches were built by Cat Ketch Yachts in Honduras (home office in Miami) and later in Port Arthur, TX. They also built the Sparhawk cat ketches designed by my friend Richard Black (I put he and Cat Ketch Yachts together). The Herreshoff cat ketches came in sizes 27' (later 28'), 31' (later 33'), 38' and 45'. Cat Ketch Yachts built their own masts on a mandrel and to a process that I laid out for them. The Herreshoff masts were all built using both S-glass (off-axis fiber) and carbon fiber (unidirectional parallel to axis). The sections were slightly oval, not round. The Herreshoffs all had half-wishbone booms which work extremely well. I have two sets of friends who each own H-31s which I get to sail on from time to time.

The Sparhawk cat ketches were built at 36' and 42'. They are more modern designs than the traditional-looking Herreshoffs. They have conventional booms. Their masts were built on the same oval mandrel, but are all-carbon construction.

I hope that helps. If you have any more questions regarding specific boats, you may contact me privately.

Eric