Let´s be practical. Are we in the right way?

My 473 it´s a fantastic sailboat. I use to sail "solo" in she is prepared for it. She is incredibily fast above 14 knots and up to that wind force moves her hull really impressive acording to the weight (11.5 tons at minimum load, 13 tons at maximum load). With 5 knots up wind I sail at 4 knt without the code cero, if I put it, the speed goes up to 5 knots. This is the proportion I did get
of her up to 14 knots. But, above this range of wind she is a crazy horse, power under control under any angle of wind. 20 kts of wind induces in her a minimum speed of 10 kts at 90º AVA but I can get till 12 kts. At 120-140º AWA she sails with great stability and very very fast with Code 4. 20 kts wind = 15 kts and 12-13 without code.

What is my only " but"?. The roll acceleration induces a bad motion comfort sailing in rough sea between 40-110. Anyway she is able to hold till 60 kts of wind between 120 º-180º AWA ( best in 170-180) with any sensation of danger, sailing in total security.

Would be better in a HR 49 or anothers nordic designs? Probably with rough seas, but never in light winds. This is the reason I prefer her and another boat and her stix goes up to 51

Best winds

 

The B57 will do 8+ with 25 to 30 knots dead astern. If you can crank off a bit, she will hit 9's. See the speed polars on the Beneteau USA web site for the B 57.

This is Farr hull and she is a good sailor. At 50,000+ pounds she is not a lightwieght and heavy weather is generally not an issue.

I routinely avergae just under 200 mniles a day on long transits. I came back from Florida to Connecticut is Spring in seven days with one stop over day. On transists we sail at 7 or motor at 8.

Read my article in October Sailing magazine on BIg Boats.

Condor

 

Offshore

Once again let me comment on the Benneteau 57 and offshore.

I am tired on hearing that it is a "production Boat". Or hearing it is nice but I wouldn't take it offshore.

I have taken it offshore. She is great. There is nothing like size and a Farr design. Nothing important has ever broken. SHe knocks off 200 miles a day. The crew is rested and relaxed. Nothing is ever scary. She just trucks along. She sails at 7 or we motor at 8.

We have wonderful meals. We put the heat on. Everyone has their own rack and bath. Off watch you have privacy and comfort.

A rested and relaxed crew, comfortable, and well fed is a safe crew. Also. people want to crew for me again. A 1,000 trip is fun.

When it is really nasty out there, there is nothing like 55 feet of waterline, 50,000 pounds and a lot of freeboard. Dry, calm and doing 9 knots in 40 knots with gusts to 50 is something to behold. I did this one long night off Hatteras last year.

It is a simple formula. Farr has a great design. Beneteau builds a nice straightforward boat that does not break. Size matters. All this nonsense about production boats is silly. I drive a production car. I fly on production planes. I sail a production boat (hull number 97). 96 people before me worked out most of the bugs. The manufacturer has been great on the small warranty things that have arisen.

People also make comments about the superiority of other marques. I note they don't own them. They sit on the dock and tell me an Oyster is a better boat. Fine, I am sure it is. But I just sailed 1,200 miles from Florida in a boat I own and can afford, their Oyster is a boat show dream they will never own or sail.

Or they have a 30 year old 35 foot boat which is "better". Reality check, lets sail to Berumda, you want to take that "better" boat, or mine. In mine, Bermuda is a lovley three day cruise. In a 35 foot boat, any 35 foot boat, it is an adventure.

Condor

 

While sailing fast and planing downwind you will always experience some rolling. If you sail a heavy displacement boat, it will also roll, on a lesser way, but it will not go over hull speed, that in your case will be a little over 8k.

 

So, what are you really telling me Vega? You mean I did the right choice with my 473 or not? In fact most of my navigation are not under 60 kts with 46 feet waves, when I am in a low pressure system I try to escape moving my position till the last 2 isobar. By this form I gain anticipation and sail under a perfect control, if, of course go to up wind. I´ve gone away very low pressure systems sailing really fast at down wind with 50-60 knts behind me.

Please read my attachments and let me know your opinion about my 473 ( calculations by Guillermo Gefaell). I always think that everyday everyboday don´t stop to learn something.

Best Winds

 

473

Having also owned a 473, she is a fast boat, a bit quicker motion in a seaway than my B 57 and runs a bit bit better off the wind. In most respects a somewhat better salier than the 57. More like a race boat, accelerates faster, better in light air, points a bit higher.

Downside would be flatter aft sections ( Group Finot desighn uch like an open Volvo 60), can run out of rudder and pop out if healed too far. The B 57 never rounds up when over powered.

condor

 

473

Having also owned a 473, she is a fast boat, a bit quicker motion in a seaway than my B 57 and runs a bit bit better off the wind. In most respects a somewhat better salier than the 57. More like a race boat, accelerates faster, better in light air, points a bit higher.

Downside would be flatter aft sections ( Group Finot desighn uch like an open Volvo 60), can run out of rudder and pop out if healed too far. The B 57 never rounds up when over powered.

condor

 

Good, it seems that you are a reasonable man. and the fact that you have owned a 473 is great for this thread.

You have said on another thread:

and have said on this one:

About big boats and speed, I believe that actually the 473, is faster than your boat, and the 473 is a lot smaler . In what regards boat speed and size, size is only the determinant factor on a displacement boat. As the 473 is a sportier boat, lighter and proportionally with more sail, it plans more easily and that makes all the difference.

You can find 40ft light cruisers that will go faster than your boat, but it will be very sporty boats. However you will find sailors that will prefer to cruise in them than in your boat, no matter the relative discomfort. Sporty sailors

In my opinion there are things better than 55 feet of waterline and 50,000 pounds. Try 72.8 feet on the waterline to the same weight and you will have a comfortable cruiser with 50% more speed potential .

http://www.shipman.dk/articles/?m0=11

I am not making fun of your boat. I find it a very good boat. I find also the 473 a very good boat, but as you can tell better than anyone here, they are very different boats.

I believe that if you value the comfort, the easy motion and a reasonable speed and if you like to have guests or a crew, your actual boat is a better choice. But if you like to sail alone, if you like to enjoy the pleasure of sailing while going fast, the 473 is a more entertaining and pleasurable boat.

It is all a question of personal taste. Different sailors, different boats .

By the way, I don’t agree with this:

I believe you are completely out of line. There are many 35ft (or smaller boats) that circumnavigated without any problem...and there are people who prefer sailing on small boats. Again, it is a question of taste and sometimes (but not always) a question of money, as it seems to be for you not owning a Oyster .

In the end the important is owning a boat that we enjoy sailing and that accommodates our needs, heavy or light, slow or fast, modern, old or classic, a boat that will take us where we want to go....and the meaningful words here are going and enjoy ....the rest we can leave for the armchair critics .

 

Big boats

As noted see my article in October Sailing magazinewhich is big boats vs small, my good friend and crew mate write the piece on small boats, he sails a 28 footer.

The 473 is more fun to sail than the B57. The B57 is an event and a prodigous amount of fiberglass to throw around. I have day sailed them both and the 473 has a higher fun potential. I have single handed them both and the 473 is much more fun in lighter airs. In heavy stuff, the center cockpit and close poximity of the winches and traveleler on the B 57 are a plus.

As I said a well found 35 can go to Bermuda and it will be an adventure. They and smaller boats have sailed around the world. But, that said, if you met us both at the dock upon arrival in St. Georges, let me tell you, my crew wil be rested, shaved, washed, relaxed and the boat will look orderly and ready to go again.

Most crews coming off a 35 foot boat will be tired, beat up and cranky. The boat will be a mess and everyone will be ready for a good night's sleep and meal out.

Condor

 

It annoys me, that you continue to stress "well founded" when you talk small(er than your) boats. No boat, small or big should do passaging without being "well founded". I really can't see why you'd be using that wording, unless it is to imply, at small boats inherently aren't "well founded" as opposed to a boat yours size, which somehow inherently is "well founded".

Go talk to the Pardeys, or any of the numerous other people that have made long passages in smaller boats. You'd be surprised. Further, a trip to the Bahamas? Get real. I don't live there, but I wouldn't call that a test of a boat by any means.

Small boats can be very well designed, and just as comfortable as your wide-butt love. It surprises me you can even think that your boat is so big. Yes, it cuts some time of on passages, but your size of boat isn't really in a different category than a 35 footer – both are rather small in a storm.

Someone seems awfully intent on defending their choice of boat to themselves and to anyone willing to listen to what is surely not well founded opinion.

Edit: Sorry, I see you said Bermuda, not Bahamas – same deal.

 

Trips

Most boats never go 30 miles past thier home ports.

In a well found boat, big or small, a trip to Berumda from the east coast of the US is a big deal. In a boat in need of work it would be a bad idea, once again regardless of size.

I agree that in a storm all boats except perhaps an aircraft carrier seem small. The ocean is very large.

I have crossed the straits of Florida and even though only about 60 miles, on a rough day, that can be a big deal.

What is a big trip is a function of one's experience and equipment. Lots of expereince and a big boat are a good combination. Lots of expereince and a smaller boat is not a bad combination.

Little expereince in any boat is not a great idea. At the bottom line, it is the expereince of the captain and the crew that always makes the difference. That includes not going offshore ina poorly prepared and maintaineed boat.

That said, my only point about which I am niether strident nor apologetic is simply that a modern big production boat is a safe fast way to get around the ocean.

This point does fly a bit in the face of an older school of salty thought that only certain boats have the pedigree to venture over the horizon. About that I do not agree. I also feel that size helps.

Condor

 

I agree that a modern big production can be quite safe, and I'm sure yours is. But when you try to push that viewpoint by way of saying anything smaller is inherently bad for passagemaking, you're making false assumptions just as bad as people who say that modern production can't cut ocean passaging. I'm sure you can see that?

 

I guess my point is, that seakeeping isn't really a parallel to size: You cannot deduct that a bigger boat is more comfortable based on size alone. It's a function of many things. Size helps in time spend at sea, all other things being equal, though.

 

Paulo

I think that when you trade Comfort factor for speed (particularly from the viewpoint of women and children) that your boat becomes less of a home and more of a vehicle. However if you sail relatively short fast legs and have good shelter in between and the opportunity to regularly re-provision then the performance cruiser can well suit the time-limited cruiser and provide a vigorous enjoyable experience. But people underestimate the ability of a heavy well designed cruising sailboat which can provide both very reasonable performance and high levels of comfort… and yes for a greater price.

This issue of load and performance is worth exploring further

There is displacement mode and semi-displacement mode, I think a lot of these lighter designs with flatter sections can operate in the semi arena when operating lightship in conditions that suit. But even a realistic minimal cruising load will see performance comparable with the heavy cruisers depending on the factors I mentioned before.
Once the light-weights get really loaded their performance suffers considerably since they are not a hull-form that suits a loaded condition wrt performance. In comparison the heavy-weight vesel absorbs the load with minimal alterations to Cp from immersion, and sail carrying ability.

The light-weights rapidly lose stability ( safety, upwind power) as equipment is added and yes if you want them for that one attribute-speed then you are going to be strict on accumulated weight, but this very weight may be sensibly required and not accumulated eclectic collections of junk .

Consider a basic cruising load.
Ground tackle, prudent seamanship dictates carrying 2 backup anchors with at least some chain, each of a size to hold the boat in adverse conditions, in coral areas an all chain rode is required. Then an outboard motor and its fuel, a dinghy, life raft, wind generator and or solar panels ,maybe a radar? SSB radio and antenna tuner. Laptop computer, wet weather gear, some spare sails. Reasonable tool set.

All the designers are sitting on a detailed weights and moments calcs for their vessel. It would be simplicity itself for them to add this equipment for "loaded" stability and yet what they call heavy-ship is I suspect nothing more than full tanks, they don't even say whether they counted people and where they put them, have they been counted as movable ballast and put in the most advantageous position ? What was the design scantling displacement?

Reasonably expected load is the Achilles-heel of lighter performance cruisers and the smaller the light weight gets the more significant the effect. Issues well understood in the Catamaran arena.

 

No, it can be a very badly designed sailboat. But that is a thing that is very rare among production boats and almost inexistent among big production boats (they are designed by the world's best architects). If it is not the case, yes, size matters in what regards comfort. I am not talking about the quality of life inside the boat on the marina (for that I prefer quality to size) but to the way the boat moves through the waves. And regarding this, the difference between a 35ft and a 60ft is huge.