Suitability of modern cruiser racers to extended blue water cruising?

Hi all,

Just joined the forums and this is my first post...tried to do some research here but did not exactly find answers to the questions I have had in my mind. Therefore I was hoping to get some insights directly from the experts in this forum.

I have been looking into buying a 43-50ft yacht for extended blue water cruising with family crew. We are planning to start in the Med and then potentially continue to the Indian Ocean and SE Asia.

The core question that it bothering me is that how well do the moder mass production cruiser/racer designs really lend themselves for this kind of usage - especially Ocean crossing? What bothers me is that most of the manufacturers do not really bother publishing e.g. the AVS, STIX and GZ curves on their brochures. Most of the dealers are not prepared to answer this kind of questions either. So I wonder how much this kind of considerations have really been getting attention during the design/manufacturing processes of the modern cruiser/racers.

I might be opening a can of worms, but is there any consensus regarding what kind of AVS/STIX values would be acceptable for blue water cruising?

To be a bit more concrete, the ones I have been looking into are Grand Soleil 45, X-Yachts 46, Arcona 460 and perhaps a bit more conventional Sweden Yachts 42/45.

If the budget would not be an issue, then some of the Hoek Classic/Truly Classic designs seem to strike a nice balance between performance and cruising abilities...but I presume that the budget for these one-offs is easily 2-3x that of those I listed above.

Thanks!

Sam

 

Each of them can cross the oceans, - if you can.
From the above seems you are willing to spend 400-500k Euro. For that you have some choice. End of Oct. beginning Nov. there is the Hanseboot in Hamburg, not so far from you. Maybe you will find something which suits your needs, or at least it will help to specify them.

 

Thanks, sounds good then. I have been to Hanseboot once and it was by far the best place I have seen to get an overview of the market.

Meanwhile also read about the new Dehler 44 with AVS figure of 140...should go into my short list too.

As far as being ready...yup, I hear you. Luckily we still have some time to prepare ourselves. We have nailed down the starting date of May 1st, 2010. And if we do not feel ready we can still chicken out and not leave the Med;-)

 

Not as fast as X or Dehler, but single handed layout and (perhaps?) unsinkable: Etap 46

 

Well I have been too busy to look at this forum, so I am a bit late in answering, but as you look for the same of kind of boat I envisage having I will share the information I have with you. There is a difference, your budget is bigger than mine, and that can only be good.

All these boats are good blue ocean going boats, but not necessarily easy boats with a reduced crew (you don’t say about the crew). Of course you can adapt them for that use, but as fast cruiser racers, their standard rig is one adapted to crew racing (X-yacts and Arcona).

About the AVS, the norm for that kind of boats is near or over 120º. The Arcona has an AVS a little bit over 120º; the Grand-Soleil 43, 125º; the Dehler 44 a bit less than 140º, about the same as the Maxi 1300. The Sweden 42 a little bit less than 120º; the x-43 with 120º and the Wauquiez a little bit over 130º.

But I believe all these have no problem with the AVS. For the intended use you want to make of the boat, I would be ( and I am in my case) more concerned with the way the keel is attached to the hull and with draft.

About the keel (bulbed fin) I would look for one attached to the boat through a metal structure. It is the case with the Grand Soleil and with the X-Yachts and also with Luffe 43 and I believe that will be also in the new Luffe 45.

The problem with all cruiser racers is draft. Too much to be practical in places where marinas are not as frequent as in western world. Lots of places out of reach and most important, a reduced capacity for taking shelter close to the shore. It is important to remember that the small waves in a sheltered place are connected with the distance you are from the shore.

With a force 7 wind, the height of the small waves is equal to D/3 (distance in miles, waves in meters) and you will only be able to maintain your position with waves no bigger than 0.60 m and even smaller waves will reduce greatly your holding capacity.

For me the ideal boat would be either a fast twin keeller (there is none on the market for the size you want) or a fast boat with a lifting keel.

I know two that would suit me if I had your budget:

One is the new Southerly46rs. The boat has little in common with the other Southerlies, was designed by Jason Ker (it is his first cruising boat, all the others are racing boats, included America’s cup boats) and it is capable of doing 7.5k to windward in 7 to 10 k of wind (AVS 155º).

The other is the Lansart 47, an aluminium boat (based on the Open 60 racers) that will probably make an ocean passage faster than any other boats that I have mentioned. The Lansart was designed by Guillaume Verdier and has an AVS of 122º and it is by far (among these) the most difficult boat to be capsized (Max GZ 1.115; Positive Area 85,6 m.deg).

Both boats are designed not as IMS or IRC racers but as very fast passage makers.

Take a look here (after page 25):

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11479&page=25&highlight=cruising costs sail motor

 

Seems more people are looking for similar boats. Vega, do you have any opinion on the Allures? I checked the 44 in January, finish what not so convincing, recently I saw a later hull, looks better now. And they started to build a 51. As to the Southerly 46: Nice, but did you ever sit on the Nav table? Difficult to use, as they needed the space to come the the aft. cabin. Lansart: Is there one to see out there? The website is the same since quite long, no progress reported.

 

Thanks Vega, very interesting pointers.

I must admit that apart from speed/safety aspects, also the "row away factor" is a major criteria. The boat should also look good (saw your posts on the other thread).

As far as the fast cruisers, I must say that I was blown away by some of the smaller yachts at http://www.hoekdesign.com/ ...but they're already a bit out of my budget range. And might be also too difficult to handle by small crew...

Which brings me to your question: we will probably be sailing with my wife + some friends most of the time. But we should be able to handle the boat also by ourselves, just the two of us. This is partly why I have been mostly thinking of boats not much larger than 45ft. We are somewhat experienced in sailing, but with smaller boats and in the Baltic. I am from Finland and have spent most of my summers in our very rocky archipelago since I was 15 - quite different sailing from what we have now in mind.

Sam

Ps. As far as the keel attachment, I found the new Dehler 44 quite interesting. Quote from their brochure "The keel of the Dehler 44 is not simply flanged onto the ship's bottom, but is recessed by up to 300mm into the hull's interior. The high forces to which it is exposed are thus discharged into the yacht's sturdy bottom structure". While this is marketing speak and the design remains to be proven, it is nice to see that some manufacturers are innovating to improve safety matters. Keels (and rudders - several Swan 45 rudders fell of from the early samples) still seem to be a vulnerable point.

 

Sam, the boat on the other thread is the Southerly 42, a very different boat (a lot slower).

I don’t know if you have seen the 46RS (it is not on that thread cause it is out of my budget). .

Just to make sure I will post some images.

 

I share your opinion about the Etap 46. It is a very good cruiser, fast for a cruiser, but not on the same league as the other boats we were talking about (even if I positively hate those fake aluminium applications, on the boat’s interior).

I don’t think that there are a lot of people looking for fast passagemakers. I think that’s why boats like the Lansart 46 or Irisoft 44 (picture) don’t stand a chance in what regards a possibility of a significant boat production. They have been built in such small numbers (sometimes only one or two boats) that their price goes over the expected (and advertised) production price.

I believe that it was what happened with the Lansart 46 (they advertised a very good price), with the Irisoft 44 and also with the Alliage Azzuro 42 (picture). About this one I am sure that it was what happened because I have personally talked with them (as you know they have turned to bigger sailboats and discontinued the 42).

About the Nav table, I have to say that I don’t sit there. I like to travel, but because I sail solo or with inexperienced “passengers” I have all my navigation stuff (electronic) on the cockpit. Of course, on the Southerly that’s different because you have a good all around view from the interior and therefore you can navigate the boat from there. But the Southerly is a semi-custom boat and I believe that if I had the budget for that boat, I would have no problem in ordering the interior alterations to fit it to my needs.

About the Allures 44, I have seen the boat at the Paris boat show and the interior, if a little bit rustic, seemed of good quality and very adapted to living aboard.
The main (big) deception was the complete lack of visibility forward (from the interior of the boat).

That boat has an atypical good stability curve (for a centerboarder) with an AVS of 125º. I have read several boat tests and heard personal comments and the idea I have retained is that it is a very good boat with very good performances (for a centerboarder with a non profiled and non ballasted keel).

That means that the boat has a good downwind performance and an average upwind performance, but one that is a lot better than the OVNIS and the like.

Of course, the performances can not compare with any of the boats we were discussing previously. Even the Etap 46 would be considerably faster. If those boats were cars, the Allures would be a fast All-ground machine, the Etap a fast Sedan and the others, sports cars.

 

Stability

I'm pretty sure offshore seaworthiness is not limited to stability. Other things come into play including port and hatch integrity, freeboard, sea kindliness, structural integrity etc.

A lot depends on where you plan to sail. Sailing in the north Atlantic, crossing the Stream or its eddies, sailing around the capes, or sailing in the Southern Ocean require a true offshore boat. I wonder how many people giving advice have been truly offshore in gale conditions or worse? I'm certainly no expert but after surviving a truly rough 3 day in early April, 300 miles off the the US coast in the eddies my preferences for a offshore cruiser might be quite different. I'm not sure there are many production boats I would want to be on in those places. My requirements: 45 foot or more aluminum, narrow to medium beam, medium displacement, pilothouse, watertight forward bulkheads, lifting keel at least 9 feet down, small cockpit, 200 gallon minimum fuel tanks, 100hp diesel, watertight engine compartment, radar, generator, ssb, sat phone, weather fax, redundant hydraulic auto pilots.

It only takes one bad experience and your significant other will change your boat dreams forever.

Good luck and stay safe and sufficient.

 

Can it be an ELAN Impression 434 ?

I have recently aquired an Elan Impession 434. Have sailed already about 1500 sm in different conditions in the Med and she's performing surprisenly well.
On the label stays category A - Ocean. Is that real?
Any one with some opinion:?:

 

BillyBay,
You are right, stability is not everything, but without stability....
People sail around the capes on Beneteaus. Even on Bavarias, although this is not for the faint hearted. Yes, a fully equipped van der Stadt, Morris, Lyman Morse, etc. would be preferable, but money might play a role in Sam`s choice. As to your 3 days in a gale: "Gentlemen dont go to weather" .

 

Those are all slow boats . Sam wants a fast one. For a better and fast boat he can pick the Swan 45....but that´s probably out of budget too

 

Vega, be more modest. Something like a Knierim 49 with 22 knots max speed will do for the beginning. http://www.knierim-yachtbau.de/html/de/yachts/bank.php
You can come from Newport to Hamburg in reasonable time (see HSH race earlier this year), but then, if you start Friday evening, what will you do on Sunday?

 

Sams original question is certainly very relevant for many of us who intend to live for an extended time on a yacht that will also see extensive blue water cruising.

His purpose:

His question:

It would be nice if we could come up with the top 100 (or whatever number) “must haves” for a blue water cruiser. Those with experience certainly have some strong opinions as to preeminent design characteristics, gear, and amenities that they would not want to do without if making extended open water voyages in their own vessel.

I would like the opinion of a broad sector of the boating community who has spent some time crossing oceans, concerning this matter, especially as it relates to design characteristics.

I don’t know if there is any interest in this. If so, maybe there should be a thread for this particular survey.