time for a new ACC rule?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by nflutter, May 2, 2007.

  1. PI Design
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    PI Design Senior Member

    Welcome back Crag - are you saying you've done some work for one of the syndicates? If so, can you eloborate?

    Vega's quote of the Areva designer was interesting, but on the whole I still agree that the current format is not bad. As I said earlier, if you want to watch fast boats with loose rules, there is always the Little America's Cup. But it's not popular, so this doesn't seem to be the answer.
     
  2. xarax

    xarax Previous Member

    "...they are ideal for their purpose and the proof is that more syndicates turned up for this challenge than (IIRC) at any other time in AC history."
    This is not a proof. It can be explained by the better organization of the Luis Vuitton cup with its many Round Robins, by the better publicity of the the city of Valencia, by the rising economical situation of many people in many countries, etc. It is not a proof that the rule is good, and of course it is not a proof that the boats "are ideal", unless one understands the meaning of the word "ideal" in a very peculiar way indeed.
    "It's always been about very rich people believing they have the money, power and control...
    ...as long as there are rich people who want to play. And how and what they play is entirely up to them."
    So ? Are you satisfied with this, somewhat dark, side of the America s Cup? (I am not.) But it is not the whole story. And it is not determined by any mysterious fate that it will remain that way. Anyway, that is also no proof that the boats are "ideal», and so we must really fell privileged that we are convicted by our own poverty to watch any games rich people play...
    "It's match racing, and match racing is always superficially dull to watch."
    If this is so, let us change it! Let us change the boats, the courses, the rules, so the sport of sailing become a spectacular sport to watch, and sailing gets the publicity it deserves.
     
  3. PI Design
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    PI Design Senior Member

    All sailing is dull to watch. But it is fun to do. Proper sporting events should be about the competitors, not the spectators.

    PS I love the poetry of your writing, Xarax.
     
  4. xarax

    xarax Previous Member

    From time immemorial, sporting events were about spectators, not competitors. Competitors were just actors in a stage for the pleasure of the spectators, who, by their own money, pay, at the end of the day, for the whole process. We, the poor spectators, work and pay for the BMW, Oracle, Emirates, Toyota, Prada, TIM, UBS etc. If the rich men wanted it so, they could very well buy a private bay or even island and sail their yachts there, in the absence of any spectator, birds included. But no, they want publicity, they die for publicity, for the simple reason that they pay their own rent from publicity, that is, from our money...Therefore, I think that we deserve the minimum right to tell them, offer us a better spectacle, sail in more interesting boats. (Which, probably, would be cheaper, too...):)
     
  5. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Americas Cup

    Xarax, I agree with you 100%! Great job here...
    Those who say sailing is dull to watch must never have seen videos of Aussie 18s or Foiler Moths sailing,or that great day in Perth years ago or Open 60's and ORMA 60's at full tilt.
    Imagine a 60' Moth! A 60' Aussie 18! Change the boat and open the design back up-that was a key element of the old America's Cup. Fast, exciting ,dangerous, capsizable(and rightable) boats on short, difficult courses in plenty of wind would eliminate the frustration of the race being over at the start because the boat that won the start could always have trouble before the end of the race. And the boats would be stunningly exciting to just to watch sailing.
     
  6. PI Design
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    PI Design Senior Member

    :) Well, there's a number of points there. The majority of sports are under-pinned by amateur participation. The best amateurs become pro's. People watch the pro's because they admire the skills on display. If you change the rules so that armchair fans get more a more televisual sport, you are potentially ruining it for the thousands of amateurs who particpate away from the cameras. For example, football may be more exciting if the goals were bigger, but it rather ruins the game for all those who play goalkeeper for their pub team every Sunday. Why should they suffer, just so that some fat slob can watch Beckham score more goals? Sport should be played. By all means watch the best play, but don't change the rules so the uneducated, who have never played, find it more fun to watch.
    If you want to increase AC viewing figures, make the grinders bikini-clad girls.:) but that is hardly the point.
    I've seen the foiling Moths and Aussie skiffs, and yes they look spectacular. But in the same way snow boarding does. It looks good for about 30 seconds and then its repetitive. Worse than that, sailing is always hard to follow because you get little sense of where the boats are relative to each other (until they cross) orthe finish line. Having said that, I've quite enjoyed watching this AC, the computer graphics help. But it is the competion aspects that make the good viewing, not lingering shots of boats sailing.
    The Big Boat/US Catamaran cup had boats designed to free rules, but wasn't much cop to watch - it was sooo one sided. Mind you the controversy did wonders for the publicity.
    And I'll say it one more time. Little America's Cup. Like the real thing, but in C Class cats (which, incidentally, have very few rules but are still stereotyped wing sail boats - to the casual observer). Well, it used to be like the real thing, but it proved so unpopular they've had to change the format.
    I like boats. I like boat design. I like radical boats. The AC isn't perfect. But a radical overhaul of the rules will not make it much more fun to watch.
     
  7. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    The reason why more syndicates turned up than ever has nothing to do with the boats but with this:

    " It's clear to me there is no other place in the world that has the sponsorship attention of the Mediterranean and it's incredible what you see even in the GP42's. In the US we can't get that, even regional banks such as Caixa Galicia or CAM fully funding TP52 or GP42 teams".
    Ben Hall from Hall spars.

    Money from sponsorship and you know, companies only offer big sponsors if they have a profit with it. The profit comes from the number of people that watches the races, most on TV.

    Dull races are bad business to the Sponsors but also to sailing, because without real money you only do dinghy racing, or gentleman racing, meaning very rich men doing exclusive international club racing.
     
  8. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    You keep writing, but you say nothing. Please tell us, specifically, what changes to the boats, courses, or rules do you forsee that would make for closer match racing, especially something that will take the focus away from the pre-start?

    It has already been pointed out time and again that using boats with great discrepancies in upwind vs downwind speed make for less competitive match racing, as the lead boat at the weather mark will not be attacked on the run, so it becomes a parade.

    It has been pointed out, and agreed by you, that adding reaching legs will not make better match racing. So what other course changes would you suggest?

    What rules can be changed that will make for better match racing, where the winner of the pre-start and favored side of the first beat will not have an almost insurmountable advantage? Use boats that will capsize? Sure, that will make for very close match racing!

    The S&S catamaran in '88 was far faster than any other boat type being mentioned by some of you, but watching it on TV was no more spectacular than watching a 12 metre.

    Watching an F1 car race on TV is less spectacular than watching NHRA Funny Car drag racing, yet more people worldwide watch the F1 races. In a straight line the Funny Cars are far faster than an F1 car, and have spectacular flames from the exhaust, the odd explosion, great biles of smoke from the burn out, parachutes to stop them, etc. Do we all say F1 would be improved with this sort of spectacle added?

    The America's Cup is about Match Racing. There are other "more spectacular" forms of sailing, but they are not the America's Cup. So change it to Team Racing in Unlimited 18 footers, or C Class Cats, or 60 foot C Class Cats, or in 14 metre Centomiglia Boats, or Unlimited sinker boards, or make it a timed 500 metre run in 30 knots of breeze, but it is no longer the America's Cup.
     
  9. xarax

    xarax Previous Member

    "Sport should be played. By all means watch the best play, but don't change the rules so the uneducated, who have never played, find it more fun to watch."
    I agree 100%. Alas, social reality tells otherwise. I wish it was not, but it is only wishful thinking. In a society where middle class is shrinking, lower classes are addicted to T.V. soap-life consumption and more and more wealth is owned by less and less people, one should have predicted something like this would happen. It is sad, it is depressing, and it might even become really dangerous, sooner or later. We live in a consumer’s kingdom, in a spectator’s arena, and we must find a way to survive...
    I believe that a possible way out is always through rational thinking : rationality in choosing a simple, comprehensible set of rules that everybody accepts and understands, so that, in the long run, "uneducated" people, even the "fat slobes", can appreciate the value of rationality in general ( and eat better and less, for example...:) ) This set of rules should hopefully promote technological development as well as sport ethics. Now, technological development has its own dangers of course, and a lot of them, as we all know. But it is in the best aspects of human nature to take well measured risks: if «a radical overhaul" of present rules has even a slight chance to succeed, I think it will be worth these risks. What we have to lose? This ACC set of rules is nothing but a house o cards, a sad reminder of a not-so-glorious past. Otherwise...Otherwise the future of the cup will remain captive of a handful of some rich people and the associated mass media hysteria they stir, a bleak future indeed...
     
  10. sailsmall
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    sailsmall Senior Member

    As a troll, Frank is much more entertaining than xarax. Could be the language thing.
     
  11. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    I don’t agree with you here. I like watching sailing (if it is spectacular stuff) and I am not the only one. Over here there is a TV cable channel dedicated only to sailing (and I will bet that also in England, as all over most of Europe). That means that a LOT of people doesn’t think that "All sailing is dull to watch".

    And it is because there are a lot of people that likes watching sailing events that you have on Europe a lot of sailing Sponsorship, particularly on the Med. region.
     
  12. xarax

    xarax Previous Member

    "...I think they have got to the end of their life..."

    "I think the rule will be reasonably tight, like a box rule, but obviously this rule is pretty complicated. It would be nice to open it up a little bit more. It will be encouraged to come up with new innovative ideas. This is a design contest - a technology race. I think that’s the way the Cup has always been, and we are going to keep it that way."
     

  13. nflutter
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    nflutter Junior Member

    who could say this cup was dull to watch! amazing sailing. close racing, shifts, pressure differences, great prestart, kites blowing out, penalties. tops! When a design rule produces two boats as evenly matched as NZL92 and SUI100, though, you know its almost at its end because you are approaching a one-design scenario.

    with todays announcement, it appears design and technology, spectacle and excitement has won over close, one-design esque racing.

    quote from sailworld:
    'Haven't really thought about the new boat. Want one that is bigger faster and more exciting to sail. have to come up with a rule for that. The rule will need enough time to allow people to build - about 20,000 man hours required to build a 90fter,' said Alinghi skipper, Brad Butterworth.
    (brad was a bit vague)

    now since the new rule is being written by the defending design team, ie a bunch of designers, keen to show what theyre made of, i predict (as do most i gather) that the new class will be much more up to date and much lighter and quicker, and they will be eager to push at least one or two boundaries other than how much money you can spend on a sailing boat.

    sorry doug sounds like no hydrofoils, nor propper canting keels, but i feel its a step in the right direction. finally the richest yachties in the world are accepting back their responsibility to advance the sport of sailing.
     
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