Vertical Windmills...

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by cstretten, May 26, 2007.

  1. Poida
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    Poida Senior Member

    Pericles, you can sail upwind with sails, it's called tacking.

    A propellor is nothing more than a rotory sail. To sail into the wind, the wind has to turn the sail putting pressure on the blades and in fact would be similar to the angle of a sail during the tacking movement. But, you would have the pressure of the wind blowing the boat backwards.

    In my humble opinion, to get the boat to move you would have to sail the boat in a tacking mode so the windmill would turn, drive the boat through a prop and sailing on an angle to avoid the head on wind situation.

    It would be more efficient in my mind to use sails and not get the loss through trying to convert the energy into another type.

    Cstretten has aked for the engineering calculations to make this concept viable. Haven't seen them yet.

    Poida
     
  2. cstretten
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    cstretten New Member

    Wow.. lot's of responses.
    The way I had envisioned the process was more of a direct mechanical (geared down or up as the case may be) linkage between the fan blades and the prop (or props?) under water. Because this type of windmill can work with from any direction there may not be as much of an issue related to going with the wind as in other horizontal windmill types I've seen.
    Tacking to avoid direct on wind against the hull of the boat could help I suppose when going against.
    I'm not really too concerned about the speed of this type of configuration at this point, but whether it could work at all :D haha.
    I'm sure at some point there would be a balance limit on how fast you could move forward... assuming the wind remained constant from one direction for a moment, your moving would effectively cause additional wind to pass through the blades correct? At what point would the resistance match the forward movement (this is also assuming the blades don't self-destruct which is a problem vertical windmills have had in the past I've read).

    The electrical generation aspect could be applied as the vessel is either in motion or at rest (not sure what the addition of a generator would be on the ability to drive the props if it was in motion). This would be simply to recharge batteries for electrical usage and not to drive any motors directly.
    Using a clutch mechanism to disengage the props, but would allow the windmill to continue would be good when not in motion :)

    One could keep a small emergency electric motor (again... not a boater or engineer so I'm not sure how "small" small is in these cases) for days when there is little or no wind... to drive a prop. This setup may not be as complex as a standard diesel fuel/engine setup on a sailboat. One could possibly remove such extra equipment and weight or convert fuel tanks into water tanks etc.

    Just throwing layman ideas out there!
    Cheers to all who are responding.

    Chris
     
  3. frosh
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    frosh Senior Member

     
  4. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Poida,

    Tacking is not moving straight upwind. You know you are being disingenuous.

    Leo,

    Technology moves us onwards and Wikipedia offers a number of newer units to explore.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX27qvPlHsI

    Two turbines, one in Germany and one in England, offer observation decks. What a great place to helm the boat?:D :D

    I think both the

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turby_wind_turbine and the 6Kw

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quietrevolution_wind_turbine

    deserve further investigation. Coupled up to a well designed DC motor, the ocean is your oyster.

    http://www.ossapowerlite.com/products/motors/motors.htm

    Pericles
     
  5. frosh
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    frosh Senior Member

    Pericles, you need to be aware of other's credentials!

    QUOTE- PERICLES-

    Pericles
    Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006
    Rep: 28 Posts: 190
    Location: London

    Yep,

    Death you cannot see, nor taste, nor smell, nor feel, nor hear. Up a creek without a 'king paddle.

    The best bit? Humans are the instruments of their own destructions. Forget Bird Flu! Nanos will be far more effective. If Big Business gets its way, put your head between your legs and kiss your *** "Goodbye"!

    Pericles

    Well, I suspect that this thread is starting to sadly degenerate into a philosophical "I CAN PUT FORWARD ARGUMENTS THAT CAN DEFEAT YOUR ARGUMENTS".

    Hi Pericles, You are the author of the initial short article quoted here, that was posted about 3 days ago under the Section--Materials.

    Reveals a lot about your inner person. That this was posted on an international forum entitled {BOAT DESIGN} is quite an eye opener for a Clinical Psychologist. You can be sure that on this forum some of the regular posters and readers include University Professors, Pyschiatrists, Engineers, Naval Architects, World respected research fellows, Boatbuilders of the highest Calibre, as well as a lot of ordinary folk who are passionate about their boats, whatever their favorite types may be.

    We can readily continue a technical discussion of wind turbines driving sailing ships, which to me seems, and I believe every other poster who has made a contribution to this thread already, the WHOLE POINT.
    Alternatively we can progress into a philosphical agenda that you are solely driving towards.

    PERICLES, It has become imperative that you clearly make a statement NOW where you stand on this. Think really hard though before you answer though, as we are all watching the inner machinations of what is possibly going on inside your head now, rather than what you are saying about Boat Wind Turbine Propulsion Systems.
     
  6. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Frosh,

    The info about nano technology was published in the latest edition of Professional Boat builder as I mentioned in my post#1 last Sunday. The article written by Jean-Yves Poirier on page 36 of said digital magazine cautioned the use of nano technology in boat building as well as the wider world, thus justifying being posted by me under the title of "materials".

    Frosh wrote "PERICLES, It has become imperative that you clearly make a statement NOW where you stand on this. Think really hard though before you answer though, as we are all watching the inner machinations of what is possibly going on inside your head now, rather than what you are saying about Boat Wind Turbine Propulsion Systems."

    My reply is this. "I don't care what you think is imperative."

    I am interested to know why you blew up, though. Maybe you haven't read PBB, because you're a clever little ******* and you believe you are above a gaining a little extra knowledge. What a heap of Tosh and Cant (Insincere speech, similar to hypocrisy. The difference between the two is sometimes explained thus: the hypocrite is entirely cynical and doesn't even believe the snake oil he or she is expounding; while the speaker of Cant does have conceptual faith in what he or she says—but won't actually be practicing what he or she is preaching.) you put together in your last post addressed to me. I am still grinning at your stupidity as I type this.

    Yeah, that's the truth of the situation and like all all piss and wind merchants, you think you are a self appointed guardian of what you consider to be important. As I am a magnanimous and a thoroughly nice good guy I shall permit you to post your apology to me, freely and without coercion, and atone for your mistake in which you invoked "the regular posters and readers include University Professors, Pyschiatrists, Engineers, Naval Architects, World respected research fellows, Boatbuilders of the highest Calibre, as well as a lot of ordinary folk who are passionate about their boats, whatever their favorite types may be." without their visible consents, I might add, as possible supporters of your turgid offering to the Muse.

    Do you get the message, Frosh? You are, in my very well considered opinion, a clot, a bore, a twerp, a disgrace to the academic achievements of Australia and a pointless pissant of the first water. Whatever you are on, I don't want and if you think this is a unprovoked besmirchment of your shield of honour, you are likely to be sadly disappointed. I assure you I could insult your integrity for hours without either repeating myself or using language likely to startle women and horses. I would give me almost endless enjoyment, but would not be a really good use of my time.

    I shall sit here, waiting for your unlikely scintillating riposte, smugly aware that you will be unable, in any way, to match my shining wit and my understanding and depth of perception of your social inadequacies, engendered by being so isolated from the rest of erudite and competent Englishmen who have to endure the occasional bush telegraph rantings of some poor colonial whose grasp of the Queen's English is sketchy at best.:D

    Start hammering those keys and confirm to the rest of the Forum whether you have a sense of humour, or are just a grumpy old man like me?

    Yours in anticipation,

    I remain, etcetera, etcetera,

    Pericles
     
  7. Poida
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    Poida Senior Member

    Pericles, you did say straight up wind and I do apologise.

    You said I was being disingenuous, I don't know what that means, but if it is anything like a ******, I guess you are right.

    Cheers
     
  8. PI Design
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    PI Design Senior Member

    Did I miss something between posts 19 and 20? I don't make the connection.
    Hey Pericles - are you a civil servent? They are the only people I know who use the "I remian..." sign off. And you used big words.
    I like Leo's idea of linking to Voith-Schneiders - very simple coupling.
     
  9. rob denney
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    rob denney Senior Member

    G'day,

    Sam
    Rob Denney quoted real results of the 9 metre long cat doing 6 knots directly upwind in 20 knots of wind. This shows that it works, but even he would not say that consistently attempting to sail directly into the wind is an ideal situation to remain in.

    Rob
    If you want to get upwind in a windmill boat, directly into it is the fastest way. Least windage. most efficiency, shortest distance.

    There is an argument that sailing the windmill boat without a water propellor would be better than with sails, and a gentleman by the name of Lord Brabazon tried this in the 1930's. Worked reasonably well for a pretty crude device, but had a few control problems. I was always too scared to uncouple the prop to test the theory.

    S The point raised by Chris, that he would not consider the speed achieved by any windmill drive as being of major importance has already been argued well enough for us to accept that speeds will be generally low in relation to speeds achieved by both modern, fairly high performance monos and multis, even those that are cruiser/racers which is the most common type.

    R I disagree. The cat's vmg under sails was much lower than under windmill. My windmill was a very raw beast, built on a tight budget and severely lacking in refinement. Pay me half a million bucks and I will build you the fastest upwind boat in the world, by a large margin. And it would use mechanical drive. Give me another half million and I will make it robust enough to sail round the world.

    S Rob Denney probably has a lot of data on record giving info on what speeds might be averaged over a fairly long ocean passage, by careful extrapolation calculations of his existing data. (Rob, I am assuming that you collected and stored such data? Pity if you didn't).

    R Too scared something was going to break, and amazed that it all worked to get to the serious data stage. I counted rpms, looked at the log for speed, listened for cracks and looked for things about to break. That is the extent of the data. As you say, a pity.

    regards,

    Rob
     
  10. frosh
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    frosh Senior Member

    Pericles, that posting of yours says it all. Thanks for enlightening everbody
     
  11. frosh
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    frosh Senior Member

    wow! Rob, are you sure?

    "Immediately the boat took off doing 14-16 knots upwind (this was apparently noted by all those watching from the balcony of the club). In addition, this super flat sail was so much easier to handle in comparison to the standard MSL12's in anything over 20 knots. Marty was also fast upwind on his Formula sailboard rigged with a 11.5m," QUOTE - Rohan Veal's Blog; posted 22nd. May 07

    Rob You want some-one to put in half a million to allow you to design and build a boat that will be the fastest upwind that the world has yet seen.

    "The cat's vmg under sails was much lower than under windmill. My windmill was a very raw beast, built on a tight budget and severely lacking in refinement. Pay me half a million bucks and I will build you the fastest upwind boat in the world, by a large margin". QUOTE - Rob Denney

    If I provide that half million to you and you build a refined windmill driven beast that walks away from Rohan on his foiler, or for that matter even a modern ORMA 60ft. upwind, I won't expect any repayment of the loan.
    However what can you give me if you fail to do so? And I would expect more than my half million back!

    How about posting some vector diagrams on the forum to at least give as a real look at this amazing vmg to windward that you talk about.
     
  12. rob denney
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    rob denney Senior Member

    G'day,
    I don't "want" anything, nor have I done any design work. I was just pointing out that it could be done. If you want some vectors, pay me some money, and I will work on them. Pay me in stages, and pull out whenever you think it can't be done.

    As for the moth going upwind at 15 knots (bound to be accurate, because it was witnessed by lots of people on the balcony!), this is not vmg to windward. If they are tacking through 90 degrees (pretty good going for a foiler, as I understand it) then they have a vmg of 10.6 knots, less the time it takes to tack, and leeway. Cogito does 10-12 knots upwind, the AC boats about the same, albeit with much tighter tacking angles. I doubt either have vmg of 10 knots.

    I can't find it, but post my pm reply to you for the reasons why I think 50% of windspeed would be achievable, and why the cruising cat only got 30%

    regards,

    Rob.
     
  13. frosh
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    frosh Senior Member

    Come on Rob! payment for a vector diagram?

    Hi Rob, I will commence with the quote from you that started the entire claim you have made more than once that windward vmg is far better with a windmill driven sailboat than the most sophisticated conventional sailed boat. You have even cited the fastest C class cat "Cogito". as going down in a windward only race to a fairly crude windmill powered yacht.

    "I designed and built a 9.2m/31' 3 bladed horizontal axis turbine for a 9m cat a few years ago. Power was through a right angle gear box at the mast head, drive shaft to another right angle at the base and then to a 1m dia water prop. Worked pretty well, max was 6 knots directly into 20 knots of breeze, much better vmg than under sails". QUOTE - Rob Denney

    Another quote from you in which you ridicule probably with good reason that Rohan's speed through the water was assessed by people looking from the balcony, (His stupidity to write this, not yours to make a comment). However Rohan has been measured numerous times by high quality GPS and we could cite some data which would show that the balcony brigade probably were pretty accurate in the guesstimate.

    "As for the moth going upwind at 15 knots (bound to be accurate, because it was witnessed by lots of people on the balcony!), this is not vmg to windward. If they are tacking through 90 degrees (pretty good going for a foiler, as I understand it) then they have a vmg of 10.6 knots, less the time it takes to tack, and leeway". QUOTE - Rob Denney

    OK. Now you are agreeing to Rohan on his Moth foiler making a vmg slightly less than 10.6 knots. You quote yourself that on your own windmill prototype the max was 6 knots directly into a 20 knot breeze. Look Rob, I did maths into uni level but am not a maths specialist; however slightly less than 10.6 knots should win a race against a boat with a max of 6 knots nearly every time.
    And what is it with the vector diagrams, is there a problem? I am happy to give up an hour of my time and come over and we can construct them together, then post them on this thread. Then I am really happy to shout you a pint of ale at Steves pub for your co-operation and efforts.
     
  14. rob denney
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    rob denney Senior Member

    Gimme a break, Sam. My prototype was built for a couple of thousand quid by someone (me) learning all the building skills as he went. The windmill blades were good, but could have been better (if I had used moulds and carbon), the water prop was rubbish, a mixture of fixed and variable pitch with all the bad points of both, and none of the good ones and the boat was a 2 tonne cruising cat with 2 large rectangular holes in the hulls for the (not required directly to windward) centreboards. Plus there were 5 people on board (4 of them cowering on the foredeck waiting for something to break. The windmill was designed for 180 rpm, I chickened out at 110. Given all this, 6 knots into 20 (30% of wind speed) was not a bad effort.

    If I built another one, it would be a one (or no) person boat, weighing less than 30 kgs, which, according to the numbers crunched at the time of the prototype, would exceed half wind speed directly into the wind. In more than 20 knots, it would beat the foiler moth and Cogito to the windward mark. Depending on how it was optimised would decide by how much it beat them and the break even wind speed against these boats.

    I have absolutely no desire to explain windmill boat design to you or anyone else for the cost of a beer.

    regards,

    Rob
     

  15. Guest625101138

    Guest625101138 Previous Member

    I have a vague recollection of a video of this very simple device going to windaward but cannot find it.
    http://www.main.org/polycosmos/silicbar/sailscrw.htm

    I did make a model windmill boat many years ago that progressed slowly to windward.

    I have since improved my knowledge of foils and prop design and have derived the following relationship for the boat going directly into the wind.

    Air Prop Load = Hull Drag / (% + Vwind /Vboat * % -1)

    % is the overall efficiency of the two props and the mechanical efficiency. Really good props could each get efficiencies of 88% and two precision right angle drives would have a combined efficiency of 94%. Hence % in the above equation would be 0.73. So if we want to do 10knts in a light weight displacement boat with a hull drag of 200N in 8knts of wind the force on the air prop will be:

    Fap= 200 / (.73 + 8/10 * .73 - 1)
    = 200/ 0.314
    = 637N

    Basically you need to make a high efficiency air prop that gives 5.5kW at the shaft in apparent wind of 18knts connected through right angle drives to a high efficiency water prop that produces 837N thrust at 10knts.

    I can give you the prop designs and hull design if you want to build it. I also can recommend some competively priced right angle gearboxes.

    I expect you would need variable pitch on the air prop to make it practical and enable optimisation off the wind.

    Rick W.
     
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