Harley 42'

46 Harley

4 sets beats three-all I want are 2-Anyway, if anyone is interested, I want to sell one set. Steve, you might need a 5th set just in case! Just kidding-take care-Martin

 

I screwed up.......but questions:
SO my 4-blade clevers couldnt get my boat on plane and I found a buyer so I sold them and will keep hunting....after work I pulled them, polished them up a bit, packed them up and I get a call from the wife that freinds are in from up north and could we give them a ride tonight? I dive in, it's getting duskish, I'm rushed...

Long story short - I put the wrong (original 3-blade) props on the wrong arneson shafts. We have a nice dinner - couple of drinks, jump on the boat, fire it up....put it in forward and it goes backwards...no worries, I'll say nothing and just shift backwards all evening since it is just a slow ICWW cruise.

So as I'm cruising along - questions start popping into my head:

1) The transmissions are borg warner 71Cs and are running backwards to make forward motion....they have a 1.5:1 reduction stamped on them yet my speed at 1000 rpm is normal (gps 8 mph at slack tide).....does that make sense?

2) So I figure, ok, maybe at 1000 rpm the difference is not too obvious. I'll see if it will get on plane and what speed I see at 3500 rpm....runs fine, planes fine, same cruise speed as in "forward". WTF?

3) So do I have straight 1:1 transmissions that are mismarked (rebuilds BTW) or does the tranny do it's reduction magic in both directions somehow?

4) Does it hurt a trans to run backwards? I had it on plane for about 2 minutes - long enough to hit cruise and trim a bit.

Wuzup with this thing? If it is a 1:1 it would explain a lot prop sizing and load-wize.

 

46 Harley

Those transmission will run in reverse the same as forward, there is no distinction. I learned this personally when we lost a prop offshore(a piece of floating debris destroyed it) and had two the same direction(the spare). We ran one in reverse and one in forward from 70miles offshore. As far as long term, ??????? I also tried to run the Left on Left and Right on Right versus the typical which is left on right ect. It ran the boat but the performance was off. As for your gears, my 2 cents, which is over valued @ $.02, the gear should run the same in reverse and forward.

 

Swamp,

I would post this question on OSO. If memory serves me well today, you cannot run the Borg Warners in reverse for any length of time. Thats why you have counter rotating engines, or do you?

Steve

 

yes I do have one counter rotating motor.

 

46 Harley

I qualified my statement with $.02 value- the transmissions I have worked with are twin disc and ZF-I dont think its good to run any in reverse the whole time but I checked with our mechanic in the back and he said Borg Warner 5000/7000 can be ran in reverse, the older ones like 71/72 1017 1018 can not be ran in reverse because its runs on rear clutches-bad- and will not cool properly-transmission cooler? So im up to $.04, see you.

 

Yeah thanks guys - I confirmed that the BG71 has a 1.5:1 reduction for it's reverse by default so that is why my speedws were the same in both directions...at the tsame time I learned it is not good to run em in reverse due to smaller clutch packs for reverse - can burn them out. I only ran them in reverse for 2 minutes so should be fine. Now I know I 1.5:1 transmissions (was suspect for last couple of years). Cheers

 

Prop stuff
I'll throw in my .02 cents that only has value due to experience not brains. Note that I have had my Harley almost 18 years and over 5,000 hours use. I have had the same mechanic the whole time. As far as running trannys fwd or reverse (on twin disc) makes no difference, thats how I run mine and twin disc has ok'd that. The ratios are the same. Vent tube opinion, I know that they are highly recommended and I'm sure there are vessels with certain set ups that really need them. My experience has shown little or no change with or without them. I try to keep a set on due to recommendations but they are just cheap pool hose attached with cable ties (see page 4, #58 for photo). I have lost them before for undetermined periods of time (sometimes wrapped in props) and noticed no performance change.
Props- I have been fortunate, I went the first 10+ years on the original set that HH put on the 330 hp Merlins. When I went to 350 Cats in 1994 I had minor changes made locally and ended up with a good all around ride with 40 knot top/33 knot cruise. I ran the 350 hp Cats about 9 years. During that time due to damage or curiousity I had them re-done a few times. I found no difference in a prop tune up by some well regonized surface drive guys vs. Joe's prop shop who knew almost nothing about surface drives. The numbers changed very little. Needless to say most repairs were done the cheap local way. In 2003 I did a complete drive train switch. New Cat 420hp, new trannys Twin Disc @1.16 to 1 (almost a direct drive, the previous set were 1.15 to 1) and I switched out the older SP-1000 drives for a rebuilt set of true #8's from Rik Wimp @ Arneson. New props were mandatory due to new drives. I worked the phones and trolled for opinions. Rik @ Arneson, HH, Ken Martin @ Pacific S. Drives and some other S. Fla. guys. Ken seemed the best qualified and knowledgeable so I followed his lead. He shipped me 2 sets to try. One set was the 5 blade SS Rolla cleavers that sell for about $15,000 new (he only wanted about $5,000 for them but they did not work) the other set was real close so I kept them and had Ken order me a new set from John Rose. I let Ken be the middle man, I'm sure he made a small profit but thats OK- he earned it. I ended up with 20x25 4 blade. First sea trial was good but a little short on rpms. Ken advised to make a minor adjustment which I did locally. After that, my prop problems were gone. So were the drive problems (CV joints were being replaced way too often).
Current numbes are top end 45 knot (honest 50mph on gps) cruise 38 knot.
Big load of fuel, gear and people has little effect on numbers. I have a high opinion of Ken's knowledge and John Rose's work. I hope your result is as good as mine was.
Swamp-I'm in Palm Beach now but leaving soon. Girlfriend has too many yard chores. I'll try and contact you next trip. We don't go south much in summer. The Pizza Cutter will be in full use summer/fall in Ocean City, Md. so if any of you guys are in area and want to see it go, contact me.
Martin-look for my info in e-mail, good luck with site.

 

46 Harley

Well- your expierence with the gear was the same as mine. I ran my boat for a long time without cavitatin tubes, but they were the wrong props. With the correct props I have to have tubes to get on a plane. On my boat it is night and day. Ken Martin built me a set of props which we have now modified 5 times locally per his recomendation and I am still not there. The best ive seen is 38.9 knots. I also have to remember that I have a very different boat from the set up (sport fish with tower, 47 l.o.a.), 2:1 gears. I'm 300 rpm short of where I need to be. It sounds like you have had the best "luck" with your boat over the years. I bought mine in 2000 and while I immensely enjoy it, i have been working on it constantly for that time period. I just don't know there is a boat to replace it with exception the Don Smith which is 800k new.

 

I just received my bill from the local boatyard. I have hauled my boat six times in the last two months! Playing with props can drive a man down to a point where he does something totally irrational.

Like buying more props.

 

46 Harley

I bought a weight belt, a super nice snorkel and mask and have made the last four changes under the boat with a helper and a box of cotter pins. It takes us about 10 minutes. I have a massive craftsman ratchet and sockets needed, a long screw driver, pair of long needle nose and were off. We block the shafts and tie rope from the dock to the blades. I was apprehensive the first time and even got a scuba tank a full gear on. The last time i did it in a bathing suit and gloves.

Guess what, im still going to do something irrational! Im going to see if Don Smith can get me a set of 6 blades for it. They ran the smoothest and best so far.
Its driving me crazy.

 

Lets see..............getting in 45 degree water with a 3-4 mph current , or paying the crane operator? Easy choice for me. Maybe during mid or late summer backed up to a beach. Maybe.

I would love some 5 or 6 blade stainless props. Just not in my budget for these engines. The longer I own this boat the more I seem to like it. It may get some new diesels before too long. It is a big commitmant to one boat though. Just gotta do it? I don't know. We'll see.

Steve

 

46 Harley

Steve:
Sorry, my ignorance about the water temp. I did get tired of paying the haul out yard a few years ago so I had a trailer built, its in some of the pictures. It was $6800, its already paid for itself. The best engines in my opinion, dollar for dollar and pound for pound are the new Cummins 485 hp, 1300 lb with gear, comes with electronic shifter and smart control. These are common rail with little smoke, high efficiency and less expensive than the other major manufactures, at least 10k less than Yanmar. If they had been out two years ago they would be in my boat v. the 440 hp Yanmar.

Take Care-
Martin

 

I talked to the Cummins rep at the Portland Boat Show this year. I don't remember the model (QSB?) but they had a set of engines rated currently at 425hp (this was last January). They said it would be higher soon. They wanted 33,000 ea with gear. I thought that was a pretty good price. I would need drives too. #6 Arnesons won't take that kind of torque.

 

46 Harley

Steve:
That sounds in line-he quoted me 71k for the pair with gears, electronic shifters and the smart gauges(digital). The new engines were lighter, more hp, an fuel efficient. A new set of #8's with all steering arms, etc is under 25k.

What do you think these boats are worth$$ fully refurbished from engine room up? My appraisal was 308k market value and 800k replacement?

Have a good weekend.

Martin