Cockpit Design--why get wet?

Kristian, I followed you to this thread, thanks for the direction. I agree with your approach why getting wet? There is a difference between day sailing, racing and going long distances when you have to go on and cannot stop, sit there and actually not steering much either. Having a choice then to stay out of the weather is a great one and adding to less fatigue and adding to the fun of doing watches day after day.
Great to have a look at how the space in the cockpit is being used and by whom and make it a comfortable place to sit and move around in. All adding to the pleasure of watch keeping and having company.
I try to get my head around all the suggestions and a vertical mounted tiller sounds great, as the vertical space is less crowded than the horizontal one.
I am definitely interested too in the vertical mounted tiller.

 

I think there are some obvious solutions, at least for smaller yachts. Unless the cockpit is huge, it is practical on boats at least up to 35 feet (and perhaps a bit more) to have a tiller mounted close to the floor at the rear of the cockpit and curving upwards. This takes up no more room than a wheel (less so in some cases) and allows the helmsman to sit forward behind the cabin (in the shelter of the dodger if one is fitted). Fitting a tiller extension makes this very easy and also allows the helmsman to get well to windward when required too. He or she can move so as to be as protected or as exposed as they wish. As a bonus, at anchor the tiller can be lifted up and the whole cockpit space used. There are potential issues with some mid cockpit traveller layouts, but they are not insurmountable with good design. When racing, we have all learnt to step around/over a tiller - again, if well designed it is no more obstructive than a large wheel, provides better feel/response, weighs less and has far less to go wrong (but perhaps not as sexy and harder to sell...). Oh, and cheaper too.

I have sailed on numerous boats with various versions of this design and can't understand the fetish that designers seem to have with putting wheel steering onto small yachts. Sometimes I feel that "progress" doesn't necessarily equate with improvement.

 

maximize interior space

Wilma---

Welcome! Your previous thread got me thinking about how to maximize interior space so that an island berth can fit into a 40-footer with a sheltered steering position. One solution is to have a flush-deck design with cockpit seats that are level to- or near-level with- the deck. That'll give you tons of room down there.

BTW, a flush-deck/high-cockpit design works well with a deck saloon. You'll have less steps to the cockpit and more space for fuel tankage underneath.

But, the higher cockpit might preclude a full-height pilothouse, so a 'chopped', sit-under dodger might work best. It'll need a cut-out down the middle though; otherwise you'll always have to crouch when entering the companionway. The center cut-out could probably be fitted with a sliding Plexiglas hatch so you can be completely sheltered for those many hours underway---you can recline in there and read a book without interference from wind and water. The covered area should be big enough so that one can sleep while the other is on-watch.

And yes, IMO (and as Torvie also mentions), a tiller is probably the most space-saving and cost-effective steering mechanism. It's one of those things that's been overlooked lately. But when you consider how little time you'll spend actively steering, it's just as well you save the space. Plus, when it actually is necessary to steer, I find that turning a wheel back-and-forth---with each passing wave---gets tedious; a tiller just takes a flick-of-the-wrist. It needs a locking (and maybe even a dampening) mechanism though, otherwise it'll be a hassle.

Something to talk with your designer about....


All the best,
Kristian

 

Your ideas are getting very exciting because John and I have been thinking about flush deck solutions for the very same reason to save space underneath, forget a cockpit, but having a sheltered area such as you described with a tiller for the rare occassion when you steer is certainly worth considering.
Thanks Kristian.

 

Eric, Hard Dogger on the '45

I was thinking about a hard dogger sim. to the one you have drawn on the 45 on my 38' Benny, but I have been reluctant to do so because of the height that it would have to be. If you look at the stern drawing of your design the reality is that if you step up to the door you will have to crawl thru it on your knees. The dogger needs to be about 6'-6" from the step-up from the cock pit,( or the bottom of the hatch). That will put the top of the dogger about 4'-0" above the top deck. I am worried that it will look very out of place and "stuck on".

 

You do not have to go through the hatch on the Globetrotter 45 on your knees, but you cannot go through standing up either. I would put my first leg through, then head and shoulders, then the other leg--a bit of a stoop but not a bad move. On your 38, however, the situation would be worse because you have to design to the size of a human--more or less fixed size--for a smaller boat. Therefore, the size of the hard dodger in comparison to the rest of the hull will be proportionally larger. This is why it is so much easier to add pilot houses to larger yachts than to smaller ones.

In general, you would like the top of the hard dodger to be at about chin level while standing behind it in the cockpit so that you can hold onto the after lip and look forward clearly over the top. That is your height limit. If that gives you sufficient room to stoop through the main companionway hatch, then fine, the hard dodger will work pretty well. If it does not give you enough room to get through, then the hard dodger probably is not an option.

Also, a lot of boats have canvas dodgers over the main companionway--do you have one, or have you seen other 38's with one? A hard dodger should be similar in size and shape to a canvas dodger. That should give you some additional guidance.

I hope that helps.

Eric

 

Danny Greene's idea on " Brazen" 34'. Permanent dodger covering the bridge deck, 4.5' wide and 4 feet long, with 4.5' of headroom. It rests on high angled cockpit coamings that act as backrest for comfortable seating. Eat, sleep, spend watches, living on deck adds much useful space on a liveaboard boat.

 

sliding hatch for dodger

Why wouldn't you build a sliding hatch into the hard dodger?

It could be aligned with the companionway hatch, so stooping wouldn't be necessary.

By the way, such an idea might also work for that nicely designed 'overhang' on the Globetrotter. Wouldn't it reduce the amount of stooping?

 

You could add a sliding hatch if you felt the extra effort to engineer and construct it was worthwhile. But the point is; millions of people sail quite happily with canvas dodgers (pram hoods) but some have found that having essentially the same things built in frp or aluminium has a number of added benefits.

There is, of course, the same slight stoop as you go below, but nothing that is noticeable after a couple of hours. But with a solid dodger you have something to brace yourself against, complete confidence in its stability in any weather, real glass screens with windscreen wipers if you should wish, a convenient place to lash the boom in storms, etc.

My only comment, if you should be translating a canvas dodger to solid, is be careful of 'knuckle clearance' on cabin top mounted winches, even allowing for the extra thickness of a solid structure. Whilst it's no problem to 'clip' your knuckles against the fabric of a canvas dodger, it just plain hurts to do so with a solid one! It's also surprising how many canvas ones need you to not only clip the canvas but displace it an inch or more in order to completely swing a handle.

Finally, you will probably have to put a couple of 10x10 hatches in the roof for ventilation as you can't fold the solid version forward on hot days.

 

structurally sound

I'm not trying to convince people that they need rooves over their heads. And, I realize that many are perfectly happy, soaking in the rain, behind canvas dodgers that barely extend beyond the cabin-top. Or no dodger at all, for that matter. That's fine for them; but not for me

With that said, I suppose a canvas dodger could extend back-and-over the cockpit seats, by about 1-meter....

But, then, there'd be no standing headroom for roughly half the cockpit's length. So, to avoid developing a curved spine, it would need a center cut-out. Plus, to see the sails, the canvas dodger's roof would need to be made of clear plastic.... To me, none of this seems sturdy or practical enough.

Therefore, I suspect that a hard-dodger would contribute more to a structurally sound cut-out, and sturdy Plexiglas panels could be used in the roof area. If you're going to build a hard-dodger in the first place, then I don't think that adding a hatchway and some Plexiglas would take any major effort or cost.

Good point. I figure, the helmsman should be able to brace himself inside the cut-out and look over the roof. When the wind gives him a headache, he should be able to sit-down, within the protective confines of the dodger, and continue to steer.

And if it rains hard, he could pull the cut-out's hatch closed to be completely shielded.

 

We know of a German boat which had a large open sliding hatch in the roof of a closed in cockpit that would allow the person to stand up to get a sense of whatever outside world he/she needed to get a sense of and that worked really well. It allowed you to do all the things that were mentioned, see the sails, the weather, give ventilation and air whenever wanted and it worked a treat.
Kristian, if I understand it well, you are looking for a solution to have an outside well sheltered steering and sail handling area that is not as deep as a 'normal' standard cockpit to save space inside the boat. Do you see this area as a second steering and sail handling station and is there another major 'work' station inside the for example raised deck saloon? What I noticed is that people even when they have a good sized pilot house they still sacrifice space to a full sized and fully equiped cockpit and that could be a waste of space.
Would you also consider having an opening roof in a deck saloon and totally do away with the cockpit idea and just have a flush deck? Why even have a less deep cockpit?

 

Now we are getting somewhere

So far I see the best solution is a hard dogger the same height as a conventional canvas dogger, with a sliding hatch. How about bottom / front forward opening windows? What about making the top out of dark bronze lexon? Mounting lights to light up the cockpit? I draw the line at adding a set of rocket launchers for thr fishing poles!!

 

deck saloon with high cockpit

Wilma---Great points. In the past, I've drawn, erased and re-drawn all of them for myself. Here are my opinions....

Very common here too. At 60-degrees latitude, most exposed-cockpit boats get dry-docked in late September. Only covered-cockpit boats stay in service. Hence, lots of innovative ideas emerge.

Yes, exactly that! There are plenty of designs with high cockpits, but few solutions for covering them.

Such a solution should work on smaller boats too---like 23- or 24-footers even.

In my case, I see the cockpit as the primary station. Sail handling would be impractical from inside a deck saloon---a loose line might yank a family pet out the hatchway

At most, I might have an autopilot and engine controls on the inside. At the very most, a steering wheel for emergency maneuvers.

That's very true. Some people like to step from wheelhouse to cockpit like stepping onto a patio. It's kind of a nice feature, but I prefer to maximize interior space.

Interesting point. An open deck saloon roof would be too dangerous, so I assume you mean lots of transparent materiial above, for viewing sails. Here're my thoughts...

low-profile deck saloon
In my case, I would prefer a low-profile deck saloon---roughly 30-cm above the flush deck. That would enable viewing in all directions--including forward. But one would need to stand-up for the view. It would not be used for sailing the vessel, aside from small adjustments via the autopilot. It would have a large galley and full nav station, which would convert to a work office in port. Forward would be settees on either side---probably a U-settee on one side.

high-profile deck saloon
Conversely, a higher-profile deck saloon would be needed to fully operate a vessel---at least roughly 60-cm above the flush deck. Normally, this design has settees mounted on platforms and necessitates lots of climbing, from level-to-level, with the vessel---every time you take a step, it's either up-or-down. It also limits usable space within the saloon. Not my favorite thing, but some people are willing to compromise in exchange for looking outside while sitting.

flush deck instead of cockpit
Our previous Nauticats had this arrangement. But, consider that a chopped dodger would need to be roughly 150-cm above the flush deck height---in my opinion, it's too high for aesthetics. Even a shallow cockpit of 40-cm would help a great deal in lowering the profile. You can model it using a chair and tape measure to see what I mean.

In your case, considering a 40-footer...

center cockpit
I would say that a shallow cockpit floor of roughly 120-cm in length *might* give you an aft cabin capable of housing an island berth; that is, without compromising forward compartments too much.

You'd be helped a great deal by not losing headroom to the cockpit seats (since you'd be sitting on (or just below) the flush deck level).

aft cockpit
Another interesting, albeit shaky, alternative (shaky because I've never seen it before) is to put an island berth directly underneath the aft cockpit's floor, so the bed's foot is right behind the companionway steps. It'd be an open-interior design if you leave-out the bulkhead (maybe use thick curtains instead?). You'd need to find a place for the engine though, but the cockpit could be rather large---and with ample drainage to the rear. Just an idea...

Regards,
Kristian

 

canvas hatch?

Ok, here's a suggestion on the topic of having a chopped-height (sit-under) hard-dodger that covers part of a cockpit. Again, it would necessitate a full-length cut-out, through the center (slightly wider than the cockpit's floor) to provide enough headroom for standing-up and to facilitate entering/exiting the cabin. To provide shelter from bad weather, the cut-out could then be closed, via a full-length roof-hatch---albeit temporarily compromising some headroom in exchange for shelter. Here's the idea:

Why not use canvas for the hard-dodger's full-length roof-hatch?

That way, the cockpit could be opened by sliding the canvas forward, like compressing an accordion. Some aluminum or fiberglass frames could be sewn-in to maintain an arched shape for maximum headroom when it's pulled shut. Also, clear plastic 'windows' would be sewn-in for viewing the sails.

Could such a canvas roof be designed to survive really heavy weather?

 

You need to look at it as two problems

The first is a dogger that is supposed to keep the salon dry when you want the companion way open (summer rain). The second is a hard cover for the helmsman. A single cover can only be accomplished in a traditional sailboat if you do what my friend from Newzeland did. Move the pedistal forward to the companionway. He did this for a single handed trip from Florida back to Newzeland. If you want a hard cover over a tradional wheel or tiller location it can be accomplisned by intergrating a radar support with a clear lexon roof. Clear, so you can see the sails at night. Drop down side curtains would be an easy addition. The hard dogger is only do-able if you have a sliding hatch, but the hatch should be as wide as the companionway. You still need the room to take the big stuff in and out of the boat for repairs. I am going to start designing the hard dogger for my 38' Bene.