Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

The world without Dougs would be a poorer place

I can't say that I agree with all (any?) of Doug's views but his enthusiasm is commendable. His work on models is very interesting and although it is easier working at that scale, the results are impressive.

Whatever you say, Doug promotes discussion and that is what this forum is about. Some people get personal and take it way too far. Keep it in perspective guys.

Dave

 

I agree,the man is passionate, and I respect that. I subscribed to this thread because he'd post, get beat up, and then come back with more. He's a glutton for punishment.

 

He used to be passionate about other subjects too,canting keels spring to mind.
His threads over the years on this forum and others show a recurring pattern.
Can't beat him for entertainment though.

 

Moth on Foils / Buoyancy pods

Foilr, the subject of buoyancy pods was raised as a method of making the Moth or ANY OTHER FOILER designed similarly to a Moth easier to sail for beginners; as a way to get on foils sooner.
I have had personal experience sailing a boat with buoyancy pods though not a Moth(a boat with a higher beam to length ratio). But I did not rely on my own experience to determine whether or not pods would help beginners in the Moth class- I relied on experienced Moth sailors as shown in the post below. There is obviously a difference of opinion between you and some of the other Moth sailors quoted on the UK site : because you dismiss the use of buoyancy pods out of hand where several experienced Moth sailors say they would be good for the class and help beginners.
My interest is not in giving advice to the Moth class but in promoting foiling and in discussing those elements of monofoiler design that can be improved upon as well as in learning as much as possible.
You say: "Your ill-informed views have made you a pariah wherever they are voiced". Hardly ill-informed as in almost every case(as shown below) -relating to foiling or foiler design- I back up what I say with other opinions , fact and experience.
You say :" ..you belittle the opinions of current and previous Moth administrators and sailors". Not true: I quoted "current and previous Moth administrators and sailors" in the post below to present the FACTS about buoyancy pods! However, when anyone dismisses an idea like buoyancy pods out of hand with no facts to back them up and no personal experience with pods -whether in the Moth class or not- I will discount such an UNINFORMED OPINION; just read the posts below from the UK site!
I do countless hours of reading and research on this subject-hands on as well as on the net. Time and time again I run into comments from people genuinely interested in foiling but turned off by the advice from some quarters to sail a seahugger for a couple of seasons before foiling. It boggles the mind to think that all this interest could be lost forever because some purists in the class insist on approaching foiling the old fashioned macho way when a better solution has been clearly demonstrated BY MOTHIES! And the M4 -the most advanced Peoples Foiler candidate- demonstrates clearly that the comments from Moth sailors shown below have not been lost on everybody: the M4 uses buoyancy pods to make it easier to sail!
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PREVIOUS POST-READ THE INFO FROM THE UK SITE:
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Previous Post #2 pod discussion-excerpts:
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Scott, the point of buoyancy pods was not to make any of the boats mentioned above faster or slower: it was to make them easier to sail! And time and again in almost all the literature on the subject the extreme difficulty of sailing a Moth in seahugger mode is repeated ad infinitum. Removable buoyancy pods seem to me like one hell of a good idea to get people into foiling a lot sooner than they would if they had to master the seahugger mode first without them.
Have you ever sailed with buoyancy pods on a Moth or a boat with a similar main hull beam/length ratio?
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The UK site as referenced in my previous post has much more on this:
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As to the rules, according to the UK site:Rule 6.3i states: "Catamaran or multihull configurations are prohibited. Sailing any type of permitted hull design consistently as a catamaran or multihull is also prohibited."
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Comments(excerpted):
--editor: "Moths with mini hulls at the tips will be much easier to sail and greatly reduce the skill differential between those who can balance their narrow hulls and those who can't."
--David Balkwill- "pods give advantage.."
--Andy Paterson"... so it helps the less skilled and so is beneficial for the class as whole." So perhaps'trainer' wings/floats allowed....but a limit on buoyancy or size for the experienced helms. Calling them trainer or 'Fairy- wings' might also discourage their use! I think there has been not much development of floaty things because it doesn't benefit the front of the fleet-and it is of benefit in a very limited range of conditions-mostly v light winds and sloppy waves."
--Doug Pybus-UK presidents view: "I personally believe that Freddy's boat is illegal...I think Freddy has stepped outside the rules. The key line in the rules is:"catamaran or multihull configurations are prohibited." FREDDY'S BOAT HAS THREE HULLS AND IS THEREFORE=A TRIMARAN=A MULTIHULL."
-- Nigel Oswald,ex UK Champions view: "I totaly agree with you that this may not be what the class wants and that if someone took the next step and produced hull shaped wings then you would have grounds to protest."
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So almost EVERYONE thinks it would help beginers and they are not alone. Those of us that have actually used them KNOW they would! Now,the previous discussion took place several years ago and despite diligent searching I can find no other reference to this discussion in Moth literature; maybe Foilr knows what was finally decided and where to find more info?
Despite the legality or not of buoyancy pods it seems that they could be a major aid to introduce people to foiling on any foiler designed similarly to the Moth, aeroSKIFF14, or M4.
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NOTE: Scott Babbage AKA "Foilr" is the recent winner of the 29er World Championship-congratulations!
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Jee-z Doug you do have thick skin, don't you? Look maybe you won't get depressed over this. Have you considered that you might have OCD?
(Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) Hey, I am a medical person by profession, not really a yacht designer as you probably thought from my erudite postings on this forum.
I was going to offer you cost price Prozac (you know, for the depression that I expected that might be caused by being shunned by the Moth publicity apparatus). On further investigation I found out that it also works as a treatment for OCD, so that which ever is the correct diagnosis, Prozac is gonna work a treat. This is no bull, just Google it to verify that I know what I am talking about. You shouldn't be embarrassed about needing it. Even Michael Douglas used to take it, around the time he was about to be seduced by Sharon Stone, I think. If you can somehow scam an Australian medicare number I can even reduce the price further! Let me know how many packets you want, and don't tell anyone as I can't run a business providing medications at wholesale price to everyone! Oh and by the way so I am not breaking any laws, can you get a prescription from your Doctor, and send it to me first!
Wishing you all the best, and hope you get better real soon.

 

Whoa!

Frosh, my man,

I realize that you are playing the irony card here in full force, but perhaps you could consider dialing it back a bit?

Now, right off, I realize that in the past I've been guilty of going too far a time or two, myself. Let's just say I've had an epiphany of sorts and I'm into another fom of communication. I'll save my ironic humor for my close friends.

I realize that I can't keep Doug from getting all pumped about foilers and it's not likely that he's going to stop his speeches to that end. But I did ask him to keep in mind that it was he who was tossing the civility limits in favor of, shall we say, highly charged invective and in his last post he did observe suitable decorum in his writing.

Perhaps that could be extended from the rest of us?

 

Thanks for the advice Chris. I will find something to calm me down and promise to stick to boat related topics with proper civility from now on.
(Sorry, this other stuff just came out, I had no control to prevent it!)

 

Doug, as I've said before on this thread on the issue of pods:

There you go, I agree with you that pods would help beginners. But the reality (fact if you can call it that) is that whilst they are allowed, nobody chooses to use them. Regardless of their theoretical benefits, they don't appear to provide a big enough advantage over existing configurations.

As I've also said before, the class as an organisation doesn't have the financial capacity to provide a fleet of learn-to-sail boats, or even one of them for that matter. The manufactures are free to promote their products to new sailors with whatever training wheels they like. Again none of them have bothered to provide pods as an optional extra.

Yes, Doug you do belittle the opinions of those who don't hold your position. On numerous occasions you quote us as "so-called experts", or a few elitists or whatever. You did it again when you said my views on pods were "UNINFORMED OPINION" despite the clear logical reasoning behind them. Please tone it down in future.

Capsizing and Moth sailing go hand in hand, even for the best Moth sailors. That's a fact that potential Mothies need to be comfortable with from the outset. Given that the lateral stability provided by hydrofoils has reduced the incidence of capsizes to leeward/windward, I wonder how the pods will help a foiling beginner from nosediving?

 

Aww ... now you shouldn't have said "nobody" ... Doug will find somebody that does or did and this will go on for another 5 pages ... sigh ....

Isn't it enough that someone that has never sailed a Moth feels qualified to make sweeping statements about what makes them easier to sail? Why bother to respond at all?

If a foiler with pods is so darn easy to sail, why aren't there any photos of Doug sailing one?

As a gauge of how interesting the "People" find the idea of foiling, the last time I looked the SKUD thread had almost 100 views and no response. No even to say no thanks.

 

Weymouth Speed Week 2006

While I'm sure the Mothies are just having fun with their GPS speed readings, others are reading far too much into these inaccurately recorded speeds.

Weymouth Speed Week in the UK was specifically started in 1975 to stop people's extragent speed claims (http://www.speedsailing.com/). Speeds are accurately determined by measuring the time to sail along a 500m course. This takes about 50 seconds at 20 knots and 20 second at 50 knots. It would be fantasic to see some of the UK foiling Moths get along to Weymouth to see what speeds they are really capable of.

Keep in mind that a foiling Moth set up for top end speed would have foil areas less than half what they use for course racing.

 

So, call-out the World Champ

So, why not have one of the Weymouth Speed Week dudes send a personal invitation to Simon Payne and his posse and get their funky foilers out to the timed traps for some real numbers?

He can be emailed through the UK Moth Association.

That should provide some new meal for the mill and Doug will get to talk about the positions, pro and con, from whatever turns out from the results.

It was too windy, it wasn't windy enough, the water was too rough, there were cheeseburger wrappers in the water, the darling foil boys were just sublime ... whatever.

We'll at least get some factual numbers for those who really care. It just won't include me. That's rarified air up in that magical 50 figure environment and there isn't a recreational sailor alive who will ever approach the number without crapping in his drawers.

Major pucker factor, that, and you'd better have the deck cleaned-up of all pointy objects and extraneous wires or the consequences could be pretty ugly.

The funny part of the whole thing is that 50 is the regulated pit speed for NASCAR and they have to have a computerized limiter on the engine to keep it at that limit.

 

Moth on Foils-just give them a chance

"Don't like the idea personally. But then it would help people who are learning."---foilr
Followed quickly by:" Regardless of their theoretical benefits ,they don't appear to provide a big enough advantage over existing configurations". Respectfully Scott, how do you know?! You said you've never used them and that "nobody is using them". Scott, I have used them on a boat very similar(even narrower)to a Moth and the benefits are very real not theoretical. I'm afraid that you(and some others) might see making the boat easier for beginners as being against the ethos of the class despite the obvious advantages easier access to foiling would have in class building.
In my opinion,no monofoiler(Peoples Foiler or Moth) that wants to build a racing class and no dealer or manufacturer could afford not to make foiling as accessible as possible-and pods are part of that as are retractable foils.No one looking at this issue from a business standpoint could afford a laissez-faire attitude toward potential customers
interested in foiling IF the idea was to build a business(or class).Under the current Moth "system" no business could advertise "come in for a test sail" because w/o pods the potential customer will spend his time trying to keep the thing upright instead of getting a taste of foiling in a reasonably quick time frame. Unless the customer was as talented as ,say, Sebastian Josse who foiled on his first attempt. Joe Blow will need all the help he can get.Pods are not a magic bullet but they are a real solution to capturing the interest of new people and getting them on foils now.
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The Moth class doesn't have forever to capitalize on the incredible wave of interest in monofoiling.
People all over the world recognize the contribution the Moth Foiler has made to sailing technology and are working hard to develop a Peoples Foiler. One or more of them will succeed with with a one design, easy to sail foiler with light wind takeoff, ample crew capacity,retractable foils,variable foils for different conditions and other improvements.
When that happens the Peoples Foiler will eclipse the Moth Foiler 100% especially if the class hasn't made a serious effort to introduce new people to foiling. Your choice.......
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Notes:
1) However appropriate it may or may not be I
never, ever used the word "elite" to describe you or anyone else in the Moth class. However, another poster here did.....
2) "so called experts" referred to people that comment authoritatively on things like using buoyancy pods while never having done so. It also
specifically refers to one famous US sailor who has never sailed a Moth but who echoed comments from others that one should "sail a seahugger for a couple of seasons" before adding foils to a Moth.That's the kind of comment and mindset that recognizes no other alternative and does the most to discourage people who would be interested in foiling if they could give it a go today or tomorrow or the day they launch the boat they've just built-not two years later.
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I think it would be really great to see a Moth modified for all out speed show up at Weymouth.
As was pointed out it there would have to be significant mods.
I think the Moth Class "contest" is interesting but since it (so far) only involves stock Moth Foilers it is no measure of top end speed.
I'd kind of like to see some sort of fun "contest" that measured "How low you can go" or the lightest air takeoff....

 

Oh the irony.

 

It would seem that speedweek is allready full this year

see http://www.speedsailing.com

Gareth

 

Amen brother