Catamaran plans, who have I forgotten ?

very nice list of materials for the EX40
What is the close guess on total cost to build and time required to build?

 

One other idea I had for Harry style proa mast raising and lowering is what I'd call side step masts that lower to the accommodation hull, Just noodling around here but if under bridge width isn't a issue it has some possibilities. Hurrying off but one idea has a frame support that has the legs run in track cars. 5 second sketch because I'm on the way to work. Obviously I've been re reading my Phil Bolger books which always illustrate approaches outside the box...

 

Hi,

I am away from home at the moment.

The problem isn't lowering them. The new Harrys have rotating masts which slip down into bearings. They are keel stepped if you like, so to drop one you firsty have to lift it out of the hull.

It's possible an EX40 could be shrunk to 10m but given it's payload is quoted at 600kg a shorter version is going to be even more limited. Saturn is rated at 600kg so I'd not be gaining anything.

If I went over 10m the next registration break point is 15m so for an extra $1000 on the plans I might as well go big, although I think I'd pair back the accomodations on the 50' boat.

Anyway if Mr Woods comes back on the Scorpio I think that's the way forward.

 

I think you missed the boat on the rig suggestion, yes I know what a neat rig the stock Harry uses. I was looking at lower cost and muscle alternatives for fast mast raising and lowering.
I do think Rob's boats offer a lot in many areas.

The wider accommodation hull suggestion of course addressed payload. You have a interesting set of requirements so it is fun for the rest of us to look at solutions though I do think in your case something close to stock would be best.

 

Sailing Trimaran 1985 Horstman Tri-star 27 Family Fun | Sail Boats | Gumtree Australia Adelaide City - Adelaide CBD | 1311272770 https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/adelaide-cbd/sail-boats/sailing-trimaran-1985-horstman-tri-star-27-family-fun/1311272770

How frustrating. I can deal with it being 3000 kms away but it's double diagonal. I guess if it were foam it wouldn't be $20k.

Always LOVED the 27-9. Incredibly nice design. Bit small and all in one accommodations....

My criteria has never changed much.

The boat needs to be sailed single handed. 9m/30' is ideal but hard limit 10m due to queensland registration.

A good double for Elizabeth isolated from the smells that make her sick.

Not ply. The less timber the better.

Previously it needed to be trailerable, but the blindness has put that aside. It's been replaced by load carrying. It'd just be nice to be less reliant on marinas.

A head not a porta potty, and thus a blackwater tank.

Standing headroom is nice, I'm 5'6" so doesn't need to be 6'. An inside shower, no one wants to see me naked. I don't want to see me naked...

I can cook and wash up in the cockpit but of course a galley is a nice option. Lots of things are nice but not necessary.

I'm slightly averse to full width bridgedeck cabins. They make access forward difficult. I hate tiny side decks. Fine in good conditions, awful when things get stressful. The other problem is everything is lumped in together so cooking sleeping bathroom etc all bleed into one another. Even big boats are somewhat cramped, cruising long term on a 30' cat you need separation IMO.... but I'm probably wrong because everyone seems to love the 30' bridgedeck cat. Otherwise why would so many be for sale....

 

I think your list is good, but separate spaces for cooking and sleeping in a tiny boat are only made possible with hull spaces, not the bdeck being roomed off, unless I misunderstood.

 

You are correct.

The Waller has the head opposite the bed so there is good separation there. A solid bulkhead between them. The galley is next to the bed but downwind of it, however I can carry a portable burner and do the actual cooking in the cockpit.

The woods has 3 well separated areas. I intend to put only a bed on the bridgedeck separated by walkways from the hulls. The cuddy cabin thing.

The Tristar is problematic as is the similar Chamberlin Trimaran, in fact all tris have this issue unless they are VERY big. The accommodations are well connected so noise smells etc bleed through.

While my concern is specifically for Elizabeth it's a problem mentioned by many ocean crossing sailors. Never being able to get away from other crew can really weigh on you if at sea for a long time. Coastal cruising is less of a problem because you can go ashore.

With the Harryproa you can put the heads in the sailing hull so you only have the galley/berths proximity to manage.

 

Well the trick with trimarans is to curtain off wing bunks for private space. Bow areas can also be separated in this manner or with a solid door if you have a head up there. Under cockpit sleeping can be screened too.
The stern cab head of a Nicol is great, the best solution really. Once you get into the mid thirty foot range there are more possibilities. For cruising tris without wing bunks where you have to choose, sleep or settee are the challenging ones, again separate bow and stern areas give room to escape.

 

Im very sorry these are all myths and misconceptions.

Firstly you need to define stress cracking rather than just as a throw away comment. Perhaps you mean Stress Corrosion Cracking, SCC? Assuming you mean SCC, that was simply down to the early days when 7000 series ally was used extensively in aircraft manufacturing many decades ago. To strengthen the alloy they would cold water quench aircraft forgings. This has now shown to be a mistake.

The evidence is pretty clear that strengthening the alloy at elevated temperatures (Tempers, T), for aging, removed or eliminate the propensity to SCC in most cases.

Sadly these throw away comments persist and tend to come from those in the aircraft industry with no working knowledge of the alloys used today in shipbuilding.
One doesn’t use the 7000 series in boat building, for ref.

Not forgetting that composite boats, where their mechanical properties slowly degrade over time from exposure to UV and seawater.

Again, another myth.
Aluminium has its own protective oxide layer. It seals itself. There are literally thousands of bare aluminium runabout sports fishing types boats in Australia, no issues. It is why they have no need to paint them.

Corrosion only occurs, like with any metal, where there is a current and an electrolyte to carry the current, from dissimilar metals. If you leave steel out unpainted what occurs…it corrodes.
Do you not use steel then??

Correctly identifying the right materials to use and mitigate where not possible via isolation means, aluminium behaves extremely well.
Ignore such simple dos and don’ts of basic protection at your peril.

A composite boat suffers from osmosis if poorly made and/or maintained, then why use composite?!

Again, another myth.
Define “rugged” and “tear”..?...and which alloy and what application. Context is everything.
Try telling these people that.

Sorry but is it EVERYTHING.
Aluminium when fabricated and welded correctly will outlast you. The QA side of fabrication is extremely important in composites, and far more important than aluminium construction owing to the endless variables that are introduces in the laying up processes.

The biggest issue with composite, in today’s environmentally green narrative, is how to dispose of them? No one has yet developed a solution to how to dispose of them in an environmentally friendly way. Whereas aluminium, is 100% recyclable.

The bottom line is, horses for courses.
You can use whichever material you want, any material will do the duty you want, if designed and built correctly.

There is no ‘perfect’ material…but, there is a right way and a wrong way to build them!

 

In his FAQ Richard Woods says "However, some large catamarans (say over 45') have been successfully built in aluminium." Sounds to me like he's saying it's too heavy for smaller (<45ft) designs. He also goes on to say that aluminum requires insulation, and some sort of interior to cover that insulation, and that adds weight. So I think in his mind it makes better sense to use foam core or wood, both of which provide insulation and a basic cosmetic finish.

 

I was briefly in Port Douglas once, what a beautiful place!

I was just being silly about the climate. After posting that I had to look up the differences and Cairns is actually a dead ringer for Miami. Brisbane doesn't seem to have an equivalent in the US, but the weather is definitely more mild, less humid and preferable to Florida.

Here's another mental exercise: if someone gave you a catamaran that was ready to go, what would be the minimum boat that you would live on for a few months and cruise up the coast? To be clear, not the boat you would choose, but the minimum you would just use and not turn your nose up at.

 

Well looking at the Woods range as examples an Eagle in foam or Wizard would do. Something equivalent to those.

My origional plan was to build a Wizzer, basically a sango but with cabins, demountable rather than folding. With the Sango cuddy cabin and rig. Wizard would have done but the 25' boat didn't seem like a lot more trouble. As I tried to draw some nice cabins for those hulls it got hard to get them right. There are a lot of really ugly cabins tacked on cats. I didn't want to do that.. Then Mr Woods drew Eagle and it seemed like an easier path. After an enquiry here I looked at Saturn for the first time and thought I could just build that demountable without any complex mods.

I had already bought epoxy and MDF for frames and was about to order foam glass bagging etc when I had my first stroke. If my eyes had recovered that is still the boat I'd build.

All of that was predicated on trailering and the restrictions that brings. As I mentioned previously now I can't drive having a boat break down to trailer doesn't make as much sense. With that limitation gone the 600kg payload of all those boats starts looking undesirable.

Scorpio is quoted at the same empty weight as Saturn, but it doesn't have a cuddy so that might add a bit of weight, but it has a 1500kg payload, 2 1/2 times Saturn. It also has LAR keels. Much more sensible than boards if on a mooring.

So most any open deck glass cat from about 25-32', a bridgedeck cabin boat at a sensible price. I guess I'd grit my teeth and buy a bigger boat if it was all glass and the right price but handling a boat that size single handed gets difficult. I might even be tempted by a glass mono or trimaran but you need a BIG boat for the accommodations to work and a mono brings other issues.

I have a friend in Port Douglas. I was born in Home Hill (500kms south of Port) and I still have a lot of family up there. Brisbane is about 1800kms south of port D.

 

Costs are all over the place at the moment. From China, it's about half the price of Aus/NZ, which are lower than US, which is lower than Europe.
Build time has too many variables, builder capability and standard of fit out and finish being the main ones. But generally speaking, about 59-70% of a conventional build.

Sailing single handed is easy. Coping with dramas, not so much. Some of the causes of sailing stress are not being able to see under the headsail, not being able to stop while you sort things out, flogging sheets and sails, foredeck snafus and fear of rounding up to reduce sail in a squall, which leads to reduced sail at night. Unstayed rigs on a harryproa platform eliminate all of these.

Agree about the porta potti, but composting heads have a lot of advantages. Blackwater is a disaster if/when it escapes.

Wrong approach. Get a boat/rig without foredeck work

 

Guzzi,

Yes, I am aware of the distance from Port Douglas as I have flown from Brisbane to Cairns, and then driven north to Port Douglas. All beautiful places that I wouldn't mind visiting again!

I agree, the 600kg payload of Eagle/Saturn doesn't seem great for extended cruising, although workable? I think not having a proper space/headroom for showering/cooking etc is more of a dealbreaker. Headroom on Saturn is only 62 inches.

You say any open deck cat from 25-32 feet, but what about that double bed? Would you add a cuddy yourself?

Regarding scorpio/javelin, these seem like more sensible cruising boat hulls, but are also complex to build with round bottom and knuckle. Better to be sailing than building. Also, since they are no longer on the website, one must wonder why?

Have you considered building Windsong without a cuddy? Yes, deep-v hulls are far from ideal, but still better than a hortsman tri or a monohull. Windsong does have advantages:

1. Can build the hull in solid GRP, something you indicated wanting to do, and something you can't do on the other designs you're considering.
2. No need to build a cuddy. The hulls are very wide and deep which allows a reasonable double berth, standing headroom, workable standing galley, etc. They're so big it almost looks comical from the outside, See attached images.
3. According to Richard, Windsong suitable for crossing oceans, so you can do so should you want to in the future. Yes, payload is listed as only 500kg, but I'm guessing payload is "better than advertised" due to the waterplane's rapid expansion as the boat is loaded down?
4. Amazing center cockpit with safe access forward and to hulls.
5. Finally, it's a very simple boat that has a good chance of actually being finished, and in reasonable time.

I've mentioned previously that I've known two different people who started catamaran builds in their early 50s. Both spent roughly 10 years building and both died in their early 60s having never finished their boats. One boat was too large, the other was too perfectionistic. Both builders got hung up on details since they were not building from plans. I've also mentioned meeting a guy who built a Pahi 42 in two years and was off sailing to Mexico, through the panama canal and on to the Carribean. The Pahi builder stuck to the plans so the path forward was always clear. Windsong is half the weight and half the advertised build time of the Pahi 42, so I think one could finish in a year with some hustle. Again, Cruising > Building > Posting to boatdesign.net in your underwear.

 

Lots to address so I'll deal with each reply seperately.

I have a spreadsheet comparing various boats based on the prices from UTEK in China. The EX40 comes in about the same as the Scorpio etc cats around the 30' mark but the big difference is the HP includes the cost of the 2 carbon masts. Excluding them it's significantly lower but allowances for waste are tricky. Also Mike Waller for example includes a waste allowance. I don't know if Richard Woods does. Either way materials cost isn't different enough to make the choice for you. You would choose the boat based on your preferences.

I could probably sail a 15m cat in perfect conditions, it's when you are overtaken by a squall, break mooring in teh middle of the night or some other disaster that you want a boat easy to handle.

I can put up with anything. There is a woman involved. If you want to have that conversation with her I'll email you her number