New projet in Africa

[bajansailor]

This was one of my replies to you 2 months ago, and you never answered my questions, so I will ask them again now.

Can you elaborate some more please, as to how your market study concluded that you need to have 30 boats operating at a minimum speed of 38 knots while carrying 40 passengers on each boat?
Did you also consider other possible permutations such as 15 boats each carrying up to 80 passengers, and the effect on fuel saving if you travel at say 25 knots rather than 38 knots?
And even the advantages / disadvantages of a power catamaran vs a monohull?

In addition to the various excellent points made by Bluebell above re establishing your SOR, my questions above will also help to determine what type / size of boat you require.
And you really need to to try to determine what your optimum cruising speed will be, as fuel is bound to be the biggest operating expense in your budget. And the faster you go, the more fuel you burn essentially.
Larger boats should be more economic generally to operate (all else being equal) assuming that you can fill them most of the time with passengers.
You have to then determine how much larger?
30 boats x 20 pax, or 15 boats x 40 pax, or 10 boats x 60 pax, or 5 boats x 120 pax - or somewhere in between even.

If you REALLY have to travel at 38 knots, then a catamaran hull form is probably going to be more efficient than a monohull.

 

[BlueBell]

Issa,

What's going on?
You repeatedly visit the forum without responding to our questions.
It raises suspicion of your intentions.
West Africa is known around the world for it's scammers.
Are you one of them?
Probably not, but still, answer the questions, make a comment, fill in the blanks.
Perhaps this is why you're 3 years into this project and have so little to show for it.

38+ knots is a very high cruising speed for a 40-passenger ferry.
It will come at a price, monetarily and design-wise.
Is 38+ knots necessary to meet the needs (SOR) of your venture?

And we haven't even talked about the budget.
Are you hoping to secure funding for the first few ferries to prove the concept?
Then, more easily fund the rest?

Really, we have only scratched the surface of what's involved here to see your project through to fruition.
You're going to need to provide more information, and answer our questions, if we are to help you move forward.

Kind regards, BB

 

[Issa]

This was one of my replies to you 2 months ago, and you never answered my questions, so I will ask them again now.



In addition to the various excellent points made by Bluebell above re establishing your SOR, my questions above will also help to determine what type / size of boat you require.
And you really need to to try to determine what your optimum cruising speed will be, as fuel is bound to be the biggest operating expense in your budget. And the faster you go, the more fuel you burn essentially.
Larger boats should be more economic generally to operate (all else being equal) assuming that you can fill them most of the time with passengers.
You have to then determine how much larger?
30 boats x 20 pax, or 15 boats x 40 pax, or 10 boats x 60 pax, or 5 boats x 120 pax - or somewhere in between even.

If you REALLY have to travel at 38 knots, then a catamaran hull form is probably going to be more efficient than a monohull.

Hello Bajansailor,
There is maybe an important detail I didn’t put an accent on.
The 90% of the journey is on lagoon.
I think this detail should be considered.
Thanks.

 

[Issa]

Issa,

What's going on?
You repeatedly visit the forum without responding to our questions.
It raises suspicion of your intentions.
West Africa is known around the world for it's scammers.
Are you one of them?
Probably not, but still, answer the questions, make a comment, fill in the blanks.
Perhaps this is why you're 3 years into this project and have so little to show for it.

38+ knots is a very high cruising speed for a 40-passenger ferry.
It will come at a price, monetarily and design-wise.
Is 38+ knots necessary to meet the needs (SOR) of your venture?

And we haven't even talked about the budget.
Are you hoping to secure funding for the first few ferries to prove the concept?
Then, more easily fund the rest?

Really, we have only scratched the surface of what's involved here to see your project through to fruition.
You're going to need to provide more information, and answer our questions, if we are to help you move forward.

Kind regards, BB

I don't remember when I ever asked for an amount from anyone on this forum. I don't see why I'm being called a scammer. I'm about to invest about $15 million in a big project and I have to let myself call scammer why I don't know. I am CEO of a company with more than 147 employees here in Germany. I have a day of 18 to 20 hours every day, which is why I don't always have time to respond as quickly as I would like. But treating me and with me a whole part of the world of scammer, I find this clumsy and misplaced or even racist towards my modest person. No one has to help me. But please let's measure the words we make towards others here. Thank you.

 

[bajansailor]

There is maybe an important detail I didn’t put an accent on.
The 90% of the journey is on lagoon.
I think this detail should be considered.

Issa, this is just one of many important details that you have not mentioned.
it is all very well that 90% of the journey is on the 'lagoon', but you do not mention anything about what the typical wave heights might be - if it is a long lagoon, and the wind is blowing along the length of it, then the waves could be significant.
We are all trying to help you - I have lots more questions that I could ask as well to help you, but there is not much point if you still refuse to answer questions from 2 months ago.
And if you are investing 15 million (US$?) in this project, then you want to make sure that you get it right.
And to get it 'right', you do need to have a very detailed Statement of Requirements, a detailed market study of the route to determine the effective number of passengers that will want to travel by fast ferry (how do they currently travel along this route - is there a road that takes much longer?), a study to determine the optimum size and speed of the ferries required, and many more fine details as well.
It would be very easy to get it wrong if you don't do as much background research as possible beforehand.

 

[Issa]

Thanks Bajansailor,
Like I said previously in my response to your questions, we know the type of boats we want to use for the project.
This are the pictures I send to you via email. We know that the boats will respond to our needs and are parfait to
Transport the quantity of passengers(40) at top cruise of at least 35knots. This is enough for our needs.
We will like to build our own line of fabrication for the boats in Africa and that’s why I’m here.
I can’t really understand why BlueBell thinks he can treat me as a scammer. Do I ever asked anybody money here?

 

[bajansailor]

we know the type of boats we want to use for the project.

What research did you do to arrive at this conclusion, that these Chinese monohull boats are the perfect boats for your project?

We know that the boats will respond to our needs

How do you 'know' this? Have the Chinese builders given you a definite guarantee that these vessels will do the job, based on the Statement of Requirements which you must have given them? Never mind that you seem to be very reluctant to disclose any details of your Statement of Requirements to us here, other than a a ferry has to carry 40 passengers at a speed of at least 35 knots. A SOR is usually a LOT more detailed than this!

Ignorance is bliss, and what you don't know about, you don't worry about - and I suspect that this is the main reason why you are so confident now.
I will repeat again - there are ferry and water taxi experts on this forum who can help you, if you simply answer the questions that were asked previously.

There are so many other questions as well - such as, have you compared the costs and advantages / disadvantages of diesel versus petrol, and shaft drive versus outdrive versus jet drive versus outboard motors? Have you identified fuelling stations on your route for your water taxis?
Have you compared the costs and advantages / disadvantages of building your vessels in fibreglass or aluminium - or even epoxy timber composite?
Have you worked out what the likely fare will be for a passenger making a full one way passage? Will you offer a discount if the passenger buys a return ticket? Will you offer further discounts if the passenger buys a weekly or monthly ticket? I presume that you are aiming this service at business commuters? If not, then who are you aiming it at?

 

[Rumars]

Issa, your problem has a very simple solution. Contact the chosen builer (chinese or not) and tell them you want to buy the design. Send a representative to the builder for a performance test, he doesn't need to understand anything about boats, he just needs a bathroom scale and a speed app on his phone. The scale he uses to weigh sand sacks that go onto the passenger seats (you should have an idea about what your average passenger with luggage weighs, if you don't, pay someone in Africa to weigh people that get on a bus), the phone is for the speed and range. After he confirms performance (since you seem to be worried about the lagoon, have it done in coastal waters not on a lake or river) you can start negotiating setting up production. The builder provides molds, materials and qualified personnel, you provide the customs agent, the building site, the workers to be trained, as well as interpreter, food and lodging for the foreign staff.

If you can't reach a financially satisfactory agreement or want to do it the hard way, instead of going to a builder with an existing product you go to a naval arhitect, commission a design, have a prototype buildt and do sea trials to confirm performance. Then you hire a boatbuilder (fiberglass version), ship him and the prototype to africa and have him build the tooling for series production while simultaneously training a few workers. Everything else, like buying materials and importing them, worksite logistics, etc. is to be done by local people, it's standard commercial stuff, they don't need to know anything about boats.

If the above is to much for you, hire a project manager capable of setting up the whole operation and give him enough authority so he can do his job.

 

[Issa]

Hello Rumars,
Let me just say thank you.
Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
With this your message, you just give the response of my all my requests
Since months on this forum. Simple answer to simple question.
Wenn das für dich keine Umstände macht, möchte ich mit dir privat chatten.
Voraussetzung, es macht für dich keine Umstände.
(If that doesn't bother you, I'd like to chat with you privately.
Prerequisite, it doesn't cause you any trouble.)

 

[bajansailor]

@Issa Rumars always give extremely good information, and I agree with him totally in his posts on this thread.

However I worry about how you do not appear to have carried out a proper study to determine the most suitable type of ferry for travelling the 80 km route along your lagoon, with some of the route being on the open sea.
Especially when you say that you are personally investing $15 million in this project.
I am still dubious about anybody claiming that the Chinese monohull ferries are the best boats for this job

This is the boats we were about to buy in Asia.
40 seats with 2x150/200HP engines.

If you really want to acquire a fleet of these boats, make sure that you get a watertight guarantee from the Builder and Designer that they will achieve the speed you require, while carrying 40 passengers at a minimum speed of 35 knots (I presume that this speed has to be maintained on the open ocean part of the route as well?).
Are you going to contact the Builder of these ferries to ask them if they are interested in helping you to set up a 'green field' site to build a factory in your country for building these vessels?
The cost of setting up your boat building operation will be significant and complex - it goes a lot further than simply employing a fibreglass technician to manage it.
China appears to build a wide variety of vessels at prices much less than charged in Europe - I presume that their average labour rate (for paying workers in a boatbuilding factory) is probably much less than what you would pay your workers, and this is something that you will have to bear in mind.

 

[Issa]

Hello Bajansailor,
The speed hasn’t to be maintained on the open ocean part of the route.
The boats builder is not willing to come and build the boats in Africa.
I think the advice of Rumars about a project manager to set up the whole
Process is for me a very good advice because I’m a very busy person with my
Company here in Germany. I have a meeting with the minister in charge of
Transportation next month and I have to work out the presentation likewise
With the president.
I still wonder how and why someone treat me as a scammer only for asking
Advice for a project when I NEVER AND EVER asked anybody for money.
Sorry to not giving more exact details about the project because I’m trying
To protect the project.
Thank you very much Bajansailor for your help, advices and with professionalism
You treat this issue. I’m really happy about meticulously work and advices you give
Me on this issue.
One more time,Thank you very much.

 

[gonzo]

I think you are forgetting some important aspects of your project. For example, after the hulls/decks are built, who is going to rig the boats? That is install the mechanical, hydraulic, electrical and electronic equipment. Then, who is going to maintain and repair them? Another important aspect of your project are waterfront facilities. Those are the docks, fuel filling stations, haulout yards for maintenance and passenger waiting areas. The crew also needs to be trained, which only you know if they are available locally.

 

[Issa]

I think you are forgetting some important aspects of your project. For example, after the hulls/decks are built, who is going to rig the boats? That is install the mechanical, hydraulic, electrical and electronic equipment. Then, who is going to maintain and repair them? Another important aspect of your project are waterfront facilities. Those are the docks, fuel filling stations, haulout yards for maintenance and passenger waiting areas. The crew also needs to be trained, which only you know if they are available locally.

Hello Gonzo,
thanks for your contribution.
Like you can read in my previously response to Bajansailor contributions, I have
Opted for Rumars advice on the project manager to set up the whole process for me and actions
Have been taking on that.
Nevertheless, thanks for your contributions.
I will update the forums on the ongoing advances of this project.

 

[rxcomposite]

I have been involved in a project of limited series 150 PAX ferry production and consequently ferry operations.

Limited because we built the boats inhouse to save on cost. Limited series, because after the quantity of boat produced, the yard closed up and the builders services were terminated. Only the maintenance crew were retained. These are holdovers of the fitters and the engineer that outfitted the boat.

As others have consistently said, you need a study. Our study showed that we need two different types of boat. One for peak time operations, the other for off peak hours. The capacity study showed that we need a fast catamaran to haul PAX at peak hours and a small monohull for off peak hours. The small ones also augmented the cats because at peak hours, the PAX outnumber the capacity/turn around times. At off peak hours, the large boat is lucky to have 50% capacity and is uneconomical to operate. This is where the small boats come in. No one size fits all.

As for the production side, we did have a project manager who is co terminus with the project. Once all the boats are delivered, there is no boatbuilding anymore. The project manager job is to hire and schedule people, handle the logistics of just in time raw materials and machinery. We did have a Yard manager/supervisor/shipwright (the one you envisioned) that took care of hiring/training, building on time and directing the workforce. Below that are leadmans of different divisions. Fiberglass technicians, moldmakers. fitters, carpenters (to build the plugs and molds). The boatbuilding was reinforced with an NA, canvassers, purchasers, footbuyers and was assisted by machinery supplier reps.

In parallel are the ferry operations management side, liazing with the Authority, quietly operating/preparing the site for the fuel depot, waste management, manning, ticketing and ferry terminal.

This is how monumental the task you are in.

 

[rxcomposite]

carrying 40 passengers at a minimum speed of 35 knots (I presume that this speed has to be maintained on the open ocean part of the route as well?).

Agree with you. The picture of the boat from China looks like it is a river boat/protected waters operation, not ocean. Not even enough freeboard. Planing monohull for speed(?) but heavily laden with passengers? A semi displacement hull form should do it. That hull won't even plane with its loading condition. It is a design not meeting the SOR.