The Issue with going all Electric

Ahem !!! You're talking to the guy that made the whole World Sailing procedure for the ISO12215 assessment of these boats. I precisely worked on these boats
Now you know the present. Now Imagine the future !

 

@Flotation

Accueil - Paleo Energetique https://paleo-energetique.org/#event-leffet-magnus

Feel free to use this site, not to re-invent the wheel !!!

P.S. It would be very kind of you to share any informations you have on the last one, which i find very interessant. Just do not imagine what we could do with that....I would hurts you too much !

(extract of the link downbelow)

 

@Flotation
I give you one like, my friend. A little publicity is always good !!! Many thanks, also for the cool pictures, which may become be a bit of history in a future where the non recyclable materials based on epoxy-carbon will hurt too much the public concern about environnement.

 

This doesn't really match with the the "all the teams converged towards foils that pushed a maximum of 1T vertically" and the "So, my point of view if that there is no real gain in making a boat totally fly, except having a new selling point" from your previous post unless you have not been paying any kind of attention for the last decade or more. Current IMOCA's often have their full weight on the foils.

You could also look into what's been happening in the Americas Cup, Moths, the new generations of oceans racing tri's for example if you're interested in how foils are used to increase efficiency of vessels.

University teams running in speed/efficiency challenges for solar and human powered boats also use foils to lift their craft fully from the water, with minimal power. It's interesting stuff, if you are willing to learn.

 

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It is so sad to see how fashion has now entered even the greater minds. Except posting on this forum, I do not watch TV, do not listen to the news, trying to get fresh the ideas from the world, without preconcieved ideas.

You talk about efficiency ? But I woould you define efficiency ? Is the definition of efficiency the same for everyone ? Please, let me develop a little more : Fishermen in the South of France, used small monohulls ICE boat to get theirs lobster traps, near the coast. 20 miles per day, 12kts max. This was their traveling distance, from the harbour at the beginning of the day, to harbour, at the end of the day. They were looking for "efficiency", regarding their energy consumptions. They were told about catamaran having better efficiency than monohulls, and they have also be in touch with the immense advertising of the Vendee Globe. So, they also wanted to test if foils could do something for them, too. So I drew a 10m catamaran : Net gain compared with the monohulls they had = almost 20%. I then add the foils : Net gain compared with the catamaran = 5% at most. Why is that ? They sailed V-shape hulls that were more effective above 14kts in planning mode, (although the local regulation required a maximum of 12 kts ), so the slenderness of the catamaran hulls used below 14kts gave them more efficiency. Then, we had a serious discussion about the foils. Do the additionnal 5% was a real gain for them, compared with the risk of the foils being stucked in lines, or damaged by impact on floating bodies ? Their answer was no, they choosed the 20% gain with less risks, and neglect the 25% gain with more risks. Efficiency is to be balanced according to everyone usage :""If it ain't broke, don't fix it.".

Fishermen are very rationnal, pragmatic people, compared with politicians and professionnal racing sailors, whose jobs consist in being fashionable. You cannot play with numbers like the GNAGNAGNA company, because fishermen have rifles, axes, harpoons and a lot of weapons that they will use against you if they are not satisfied in the end. Unlike politician and professionnal racing sailors, who are, most of the time, more dilligent for several reasons : First, failure or defeats can be exploited to give them more opportunities of increasing their visibility, with an appropriate communication. Second, most of the time, one could not reproached them to have try "everything they could" to get to the goal. Third, like in the tale of "The Naked King", they generally could not admit in public that they could have be fooled by some charlatan.

A very interesting challenge has been made by a company supported by the EPFL, in Switzerland. HYDROS efficiency. They made a challenge to ship a certain amount of material using a given power bank. I saw the results and and also some conversations with the CEO of the company. Do you know what boat configuration was the most efficient, under these conditions ?
Swath boats, where all the cargo was inside the submerged hull, with only solar panels on the weather deck. Swath against foils.... But again, for people who are willing to sell transportation at higher speeds, regardless of any other constraint, like in racing boats, foils have proven since a long long long long long time ago to be efficient. Again, is it the efficiency we are looking for ? That's my question. Toconclude, my opinion is that, there is not one answer for all problems, so an opened mind ready to consider every solutions, has more chance to be righfull rather than mind only focus on one technologie put in front by medias.

 

@Flotation
One more word : Why am I so insistent about the GNAGNAGNA company and their foil solution ? Because new solutions for the energetic transition are to be financially supported. Some of these fund are delivered by organisations whose goals is to make profit from communication, whatever subject is to be funded. These funds are a limited ressource, shared between entrepreneurs. If too much of them are charlatan, there is no more money left for entrepreneurs with honest solutions.

 

I'm talking about the efficiency needed for the kind of affordable high speed public transport Candela is developing. High speed because people would rather spend 15 minutes per day going to and from their work instead of one hour in a slower water bus.

You keep denying what has been happening in the foiling and sailing world for the past decade. You also keep using words like "charlatan" and "fishy" when talking about Candela.

This is what they are selling now:

A 8 passenger boat weighing 1605 kg capable of a speed of 23 knots while using 16 kW of power and 30 knots with 37 kW.



Candela C-8 https://candela.com/candela-c-8/

These numbers make what they propose for their 30 passenger water bus very believable.

On multiple occasions you have been telling us you are happy to travel and about your interest in the scientific method. Instead of spreading fantasies about how "big advertising" and their budget for "big renewable energy" are being abused by "big foil" to spread disinformation about the efficiency of foils i propose something else: You get some power consumption and speed measuring equipment you trust, travel to Stockholm and start testing your presumptions, like a scientist would. I'm sure they will let you. If you ask nicely.

 

I am a fisherman. Yes, for the table and yes, for sport.

Incremental efficiency gains that carry risk are completely difference from ones without risk.

The auto industry, for years, had little reason to change fuel economy standards. As long as they were all terrible; it was fine. The idea that ev is a panacea is certainly false. Requires more intrusive mining, for one.

 

Instead of dismissing EV's as a solution you can look at fixing the mining problem. One can also wonder if the mining problem even is that bad compared to the misery the hunt for and use of fossil fuels is bringing us.

Also:

• Environmentally friendly mining methods already exist, like the "Zero Carbon Lithium Project" mentioned in post #26
• Countries can enforce environmentally and socially safe conventional mining methods.
  
• You can help developing countries to put systems in place to ensure ores can be mined responsibly
  
• Battery production companies can demand the metals they use are mined in a responsible way, as can their clients
  
• Battery recycling plants are being built all over the world at this moment. Methods to improve the efficiency of battery recycling are rapidly evolving
• The impact of mining methods has to be spread over the total life cycle of the materials used. Apart from recycling possibilities the lifespan of batteries is also increasing steadily. Million mile batteries are not out of the realm of reality. Even 4 million mile batteries might be possible in the future.

 

High speed is fashion for fashionable people. Gosh ! you've read nothing and you forget totally your history. Foils are known for a long long long long long long long long long time. Their efficiency has not change since their first use. I wonder, Flotaison, why don't we see these "so efficient systems" not often on the water ? Please, tell me how many military foiler (number of units) are operational today ? Tell me how many ferries (number of units) are equipped with foils ? What is the proportion of foiler among all the workboats ? If you could just explain why this proportion ?

What will be the cost of a milion mile batterie ? In France, the new generation of high tech car batteries for EV will not be sold, but they will be rented. Do you know why ? Regarding mining, can you explain why, since 2011, the EU has forbidden the use of shale gas ? Are you familiar with the term "acid mine drainage" ? Ground instability ? Ground water pollution ? In France (again), the environmental regulation that forbids lithium ( and other rare earth ) mining is being questionned, of course. All the proposed friendly and responsible method of mining have been rejected, despite our will to be self dependent regarding our needs of rare earth, and despite those materials being present under our feet. Do you knwo why ? Till now, it has been preferable to make this kind of exploitation in far far far far away countries, where environmental regulations was not so strict. Do you know why ? Have you ever seen a lithium mine with your own eyes ? Have you ever seen an abandonned mine ? Do you know how much does it take for the soil to recover after being mined ? In France, the hydrogen batterie is heavily developped. Do you know why ?

 

The numbers i showed you about the 56' trimaran come from measurements on the water, not with speedo, nor GPS, but with load sensors correlated to the RPM gauge. So I'm confident on these numbers. The calculations I present showed without a doubt that foils used under 12 kts don't decrease the propulsive power required for the trimaran. I show you how you can conclude that, under a certain speed, in general, foils do not decrease the drag resistance of the boat. I show you that the most of the speed gain of IMOCAs was due to the additionnal righting moment caused by the deported foils. And now you're asking me to make a test campaign on the boat just to verify what I know already ? For you to skip doing the calculations by yourself ?

This is what will happen, my friend. I will jump on any occasion to make measurement on the GNAGNAGNA, and establish comparisons with my own database , because, as you said, this is my work to verify my calculations, again and again, to keep being a good adviser to my client.
But none of the results will ever be published at your disposal, unless you make a little effort, and do the calculations by yourself, and ask nicely for me to cross check your calculations with my measurements.

Before that, of course, we will have agreed on the definition of the efficiency. Like my grand mother used to say : " C'est pas demain la veille !" (it is not likely this will happen soon). So I guess that I will just keep the results for me....

 

The world is not going wait and stand still until France is ready to start exporting this wonderful technology.

Until then we have the option to continue using fossil fuels at the rate we currently do or minimize the impact of using renewables.

 

The 2021 Transat Jacques Vabre IMOCA class winner averaged well over 14 knots because of foils capable of carrying it's full weight. About 8 times more than the 1 ton maximum you claimed was found optimal. And totally against your "So, my point of view if that there is no real gain in making a boat totally fly, except having a new selling point". For your convenience even posted pictures of the numbers 1, 2 and 3 in this class clearly well above the water.

You can't deny science and technology at times move forward instead of backwards.

Like my grandson once said: "Things will change, sooner or later".

 

Taking brine from a deep well has nothing to do with the fracking of rock over large areas and volumes needed for shale gas exploitation.

The EU did not forbid the use of shale gas, they still import it, despite the heavy environmental impact it can have. They import even more than they used to do because of the geopolitical situation and the slow development of renewable alternatives.

Although there should be one no EU wide ban on shale gas exploitation exists, it's up to the individual member states to allow it on their territory.

Don't be silly, you will be able to buy a battery electric vehicle and own the battery yourself in future France.

Not applicable to all rare earth mining methods and/or preventable with responsible mining techniques.

That's why I propose to "help developing countries to put systems in place to ensure ores can be mined responsibly".

This will have the added benefit of making these countries more developed, which typically will lower their birth rate, which will make the peak of human population numbers on this planet come sooner. We discussed this topic when we were talking about your erroneous calculations on how earth would be fully covered in solar panels in 300 years.

I did, we need to do better. And we can do better, even with surface mining.

That's why I'm promoting the idea of the Zero Carbon Lithium Project, Upper Rhine Valley, Germany https://www.mining-technology.com/projects/zero-carbon-lithium-project-upper-rhine-valley-germany/

And a similar project in the United States:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/04/the-salton-sea-could-produce-the-worlds-greenest-lithium.html

Projects like these are possible all over the world.

 

I have read that more copper needs to be mined in the next 30 years than all of prior history to met the EV promises being made today. Is that possible? copper mines are often polluting rivers for hundreds of years.

One such mine in bougainville island: the Panguna mine was closed in 1989 (sabotaged by the locals who would no longer tolerate its existence)
youtube videos show that the children who swim downstream of it in the water today more than 30 years later have skin lesions from the polluted water.