Small, stable, modular boat for photography

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by CallMeGeorge, May 28, 2022.

  1. mitchgrunes
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    mitchgrunes Senior Member

    That sounds like a fantastic idea. They could be very stealthy. And a small one wouldn't frighten larger wildlife - quite the opposite, though it might be attacked by wildlife as prey. Much like drones are sometimes attacked by birds of prey.

    You could get some interesting shots as the animal attacks your RC boat.
     
  2. portacruise
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    portacruise Senior Member

    7. Fit in my Mazda 3 hatchback. (Or weigh less than 50 lbs and be sturdy enough to ride on a roof rack.)

    Maybe Only two or three inflatable solutions if it has to fit in the car, but you will have to sit upright, or possibly lean back the boat seat severely to lay close to flat. Inflatables built with the proper materials are rugged enough to take even the most severe collisions that might crack up some solid boats when used in Rapids. If the prone requirement is kept, maybe a dozen or so Solutions if you use a roof rack, but most will go over 50 lb. Using a trailer will give you even more possibilities, including a custom-built system prone and comfortable... As pointed out before, many of the SOR are in conflict with others, maybe a revised SOR with acceptable compromises will help with getting better suggestions. Hope this helps.
     
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  3. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    1-6 are no problem, you need a catamaran with a min 6.5x6.5ft solid deck, with nonskid paint and some mounting hardware.
    For #7 we make the cat demountable, so we can ditch the 50lbs total weight and consider it the upper individual component weight. The car has a roof weight limit of 165lbs, so that's the max. weight including rack. Length will be 14ft, that means no overhang.

    To make the boat there are several options, from using existing boats to all custom. The deck is always the same, several pieces of glassed PVC foam/balsa/nomex secured to the beams. The beams are a pair of Al or carbon tubes. The two hulls can be custom or use existing boats.
    For custom hulls use this tutorial Foam and Fiberglass Ama Construction https://amaconstruction.blogspot.com/2021/02/foamand-fiberglass-ama-construction.html?m=1 Even if the glass is pierced the boat will not sink.
    For existing boats find two 14ft kayaks or cut down some ancient rowing shell.
     
  4. CallMeGeorge
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    CallMeGeorge Junior Member

    In response to a suggestion above, I spent some time on the Expandacraft website. It appears that: the 12 footer will fit in the car; there is a standard configuration that is ~48" wide for stability; I can lay prone as needed; the beam to length ratio of the pontoons is at or above 12 (for efficiency); the materials are rugged enough for the application. I have a couple of concerns, the main one being that there is very little presence on the web apart from the company's website. I have not found a single person who has actually used one. (I saw the thread on this forum that dates back to the announcement of the product.) I will contact the company later this week.
     
  5. CallMeGeorge
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    CallMeGeorge Junior Member

    I read through the tutorial. I could practice the techniques on small sections until I understand how to do it right.
    This has possibilities. (I had always planned to fill the pontoons with urethane foam for safety in case of piercing, if I built my own.)
    QUESTIONS:
    1. Does "ama" mean Amatex?
    2. Why 6.5 ft wide for the deck? That is, is there a quantitative requirement that must be met for stability? I will never be using this boat on the ocean or a lake of any size. It's hard to imagine waves over 18 inches crest to trough under the worst of conditions.
     
  6. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

  7. mitchgrunes
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    mitchgrunes Senior Member

    BTW, I've had really bad luck with 3 separate Thule Hullavators (the next 2 were warranty or other manufacturer replacements) - the joints and springs all went bad, lifting a 42 pound sea kayak. (Which is not at all heavy by sea kayak standards. BTW Most kayaks require a fair bit of practice to use.) All my Hullavators needed to be hammered and bent to shape to fit together. I now just use round racks bars, and fit a strong pipe inside temporally, to extend the rack bar. Then I lift one end at a time onto the extension, and push it over. Less trouble prone. It takes a fair amount of time to load and unload any boat on any rack, including rope or strap tie downs, and you need to be careful not to scratch your car or break your mirrors.

    I've never had a Mazda, but I've fit short kayaks inside other hatchbacks. That's fast and easy. They aren't super-fast, nor are they great for long distance flatwater trips, but maybe you don't need that.

    Plus, you may need to spend extra money outfitting your car with front and rear tie down points. And you need a place to store your boats when they aren't in use. As well as associated gear like PFDs, warm-when-wet clothing, etc. Though you may need those anyway, except for the RC control boat.

    ORU folding kayaks could easily fit in your car, but they look pretty fragile. Many people on Youtube say stuff starts breaking off on their first assembly. (Though, in fairness, some of the people on Youtube didn't follow directions.) They do seem like a fantastic idea, in theory, and I knew one person who had one. I've come to the conclusion that folding boats all require significant maintenance. Whereas small plastic and fiberglass boats require virtually none, if not stored in the water.

    In contrast, I suppose the floating inflatable chair or inner tube that people here have suggested is pretty cost effective, even if it has some limits. So might be an RC controlled boat. And they'll all fit in your car. Reasonable starting points.

    I admit none of those would have occurred to me. Kayaks and the like require a significant amount of practice and extra gear, so if photography is your only goal, maybe it isn't worth it, at least at first - perhaps only to go places you can't go with the others.

    BTW, tough whitewater rafts are heavy and expensive, but are probably overkill for flatwater work.

    I don't think anyone has mentioned scuba gear, which could help make you stealthy. I don't really know, but I think the equipment costs (plus underwater cameras, and if you go into saltwater, jelly fish resistant skins), maintenance and training requirements could be pretty expensive. (But I got fairly close-up shark pictures using cheap snorkle gear around Hawaii. I wonder if a large bird would attack a snorkle tube, or the person below. You can find out for yourself. :) I know geese can be aggressive if you get too close, especially if they have young. Then again, so can blackbirds, turkey, hawks, moose and bears.) BTW, some reservoirs used for city water ban swimmers, which might include scuba, snorkle, and include inner tube use.

    No matter what you use, you will NOT be the only person out there taking wildlife pictures. Many people who go outdoors, take and post pictures. I suspect you have to be pretty exceptional to sell anything.

    Regardless, obviously rinse and dry your wet gear after use.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2022
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  8. portacruise
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    portacruise Senior Member

    Mitch wrote,

    "In contrast, I suppose the floating inflatable chair or inner tube that people here have suggested is pretty cost effective, even if it has some limits. So might be an RC controlled boat. And they'll all fit in your car. Reasonable starting points."

    Mine are small, backstrap pack in (inflated or not), ($130), self customized, 4 bladder/ nylon skin "V" shape Float Tubes that go where many other boats can't. FT weight is around 20 lb including motor and batteries (but without fishing or backup equipment) and e-propulsion outfitted for a ten mile range at average of 2.5 mph. The back seat can be folded down flat when the air pressure is adjusted, so an upper body prone position is possible, though I haven't used it for photos in that way. Seated or Prone (hands free!) propulsion and steering control could be provided with fins in deep water or feet on the River Bottom when shallow, and that is one of my several backup modes if the power system fails. That FT system could conceivably also be adapted for use as an RC/ GPS lock boat, with or without a passenger, maybe even for other uses. The FT easily fits in the back of my (38" W seats down) Prius when in inflated mode, because the two side pontoons fold towards each other when the bottom seat is deflated, and could fit even smaller cargo areas with further partial deflation. FT is stored in my garage in partially deflated mode with all the pockets packed, so it is a quick Grab & Go into water, for an Excursion (100 X per year). It is more stable then most kayaks because the area behind the seat is 2 small holes flow in/out partially flooded, the seat bottom and back can be air pressure adjusted while underway to lower the CG, and the feet hanging down can serve as an adjustable keel, plus quick (no careful balance required) mounting and dismounting at any shallow shorelines by sitting or standing, Etc. Better than pontoons for me, because it doesn't hang up on protruding rocks in the space between when I go down Rapids. Tiny botes have been my hobby for many many years, and I still come up with new improvements each time I go out, haha!

    Mine are no longer made, but this one is very similar but larger and more rugged, click on left side pictures to see various views,

    Outcast Super Fat Cat-LCS Float Tube | Inflatable Fly Fishing Float Tubes https://www.caddisflyshop.com/outcast-super-fat-cat-lcs-float-tube.html#itemimages-2
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2022
  9. CallMeGeorge
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    CallMeGeorge Junior Member

    That's good information. Thanks.


    My 2012 Mazda 3 hatchback has ~54" of usable length behind the front seats. I might push that to 57", but I think that will make the pack/unpack process awkward.
    I would want everything to fit inside with the hatch latched shut.


    Folding and inflatable boats just don't look sturdy enough to me. It might be that some inflatables with tough skins are actually okay, but I could never get the solid mount I need for the tripod. (At 600mm focal length and short shutter speeds, the movement of the boat as it rocks with small waves is not a problem—but a wobbly camera mount is a big problem.)


    The attraction of the catamaran is the wide stance, reducing the risk of capsizing. I expect to use the trolling motor most of the time, though paddling will be necessary at times in shallow water.


    Photography is a hobby, for my enjoyment. I have no illusions that my work is good enough to turn the hobby into a profit center.
    However, while it is true that there are plenty of wildlife photographers out working on any given day, the population density at a given rural location is not high. Most days I don't see anyone else for hours at a time.
     
  10. KJL38
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    KJL38 Senior Member

  11. Tiny Turnip
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    Tiny Turnip Senior Member

    Wouldn't a beamy, lying down SUP with a touch of punt gun about it do the trick? (not so much the shooting the birds, obvs ;)) I'm thinking more a bit of gunwhale above the deck level, and hand paddles. Build in two connecting parts so as to fit in the back of the Mazda.



     
  12. CallMeGeorge
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    CallMeGeorge Junior Member

    I would use a modular boat made of solid pieces before using an inflatable. I did have a look at the Takacat website. Essentially, the boat has an ultra-thin PVC hull. There are too many pointy sticks in the backwater areas for me to have confidence in such a boat. I'm not in a position to quantify that objection—but it stands to reason that (for example) the risk of abrasion to the fiberglass coat on a wooden hull is much lower than the risk of piercing a few mils of PVC.
     
  13. CallMeGeorge
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    CallMeGeorge Junior Member

    I like the paddleboard concept, with (as you suggest) a bit of gunwale to minimize splashes.

    I've been watching videos of people gluing bulkheads into boats. The first question that came to mind concerned the strength of the bond, in shear at the fillet and also the peel strength of the sheet that joins the hull to the bulkhead. When I'm designing a piece of industrial equipment, the answers to such questions tell me how much material I will need, and where. The same is true with regard to the boat. On the other hand, thousands of people build such boats and use them successfully. Even so, I would like to have a better answer than "everyone else does it."

    I found this paper this morning. Haven't read it yet.
    https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2006/fpl_2006_frihart003.pdf
     
  14. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    George, you don't need to reinvent the wheel. For a monohull solution just use the standard setup of a wide plastic fishing kayak, strapped in tripod and gimball mount. Like this:
    A Guide to Photographing From a Kayak https://shuttermuse.com/photography-from-a-kayak/ Kayak photography continued... — Dave Razzi Wildlife https://www.daverazzi.com/blog/kayak-photography-continued
    The boats are stable enough to stand up in them and around 60lbs. If you can't lift that by yourself into the car, the net offers countless contraptions to help you.

    As for building, epoxy is stronger then plywood, a fillet will tear the wood first.
     

  15. portacruise
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    portacruise Senior Member

    Will you need any structure on the deck ( seating or standing support, Etc ?) other than a camera mount, as that may have to be taken into account when designing for a prone position? What are the approximate expectations for the amount of time that is required per excursion in the prone position from start to finish? It may require some special design considerations if you will be powering the boat for a significant distance while in the prone position, especially to view and avoid noises/ disturbances from shallow water grounding and collisions, plus will there be prone position fatigue to alleviate?
     
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