Any updates based on the new world we live in?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by wmonastra, Apr 10, 2022.

  1. wmonastra
    Joined: Jun 2006
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    wmonastra Junior Member

    Hey fellow sailors and water lovers..

    I was doing some hunting on a post i was chatting on many years back (Link below.)

    The end of the world is near....... what Yacht will you build? https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/the-end-of-the-world-is-near-what-yacht-will-you-build.12218/

    And thought it would be interesting to see what people are now doing (if anything) based on today's climate around the world..and there "End of the world" design?

    Me..... well I have lived on my 30ft pocket offshore yacht for the last 7 years... and I have done about 80% of what I posted in the forum all those years back, and have sailed twice to Fiji and prior to our country (NZ) going into its first lockdown I had the boat prepped for a solo sail across the Pacific to San Francisco (Including 9 months of food and supplies).. when we had our lockdowns (NZ has had at least 4 so far with a new one said to be coming about June (ish) that stopped everything in its tracks (Grrrrr)

    My sailor mate pointed the bow of his 30ft offshore yacht east to the Pacific and headed to sea for 74 days during the first LD.... I know of other sailing friends who like myself sailed out to the outer islands around NZ and just hung out there.... during that time I know of a lot of people who struggled on land, and I often question if being in a bay somewhere unable to move for weeks at a time was any better? Some days it was awesome, others not so much...

    I have my views on what's happening around the world and why...as do many others, but this is not what I'm really asking....

    A lot of people say we are nearing the end of the world...... so I thought it would be fun to see if anyone on the original post all those years back ever found their "Dream" yacht and what is it and where are they.... and did it live up to what they were hoping it would be?

    My yacht is a Kiwi (NZ) built 30ft offshore yacht... and since 90% of my sailing is solo..I have it set up as such and for very heavy weather... sure there are a few things I'd love to have (a shower would be lovely, as would hot water) but its never really been an issue... I'd rather sail my yacht in anything above 30 knots any day of the week, than on some modern plastic yacht that has flexing bulkheads and leaks everywhere... I feel pretty safe and confident that I can sail off at less than 3 hours notice and not have to be reliant on anyone at all... My boat is safe, strong, and is very simple...and she suits me really well....

    So given how hard and stressful it is for everyone.....I'd love to hear about your boats, stories...preps for the "End of the world" and lets see if we can have some fun in these troubled times :)

    So....The end of the world is (very) near...... What yacht will you build?
     
  2. Dolfiman
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    Dolfiman Senior Member

    A kind of Swede 55, e.g. :
    15m x 3m x draft ~ 2,15 m x ballast ratio > 45% x short mast (mast height < 16 m / wl)
    >>> cheap for its lenght, easily fast for a single-handler, very good ultimate stabilité (AVS, ...)
     
  3. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    A double ender with a rudder at each end because I don't know if I'm coming or going lately is what I would build.
     
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  4. wmonastra
    Joined: Jun 2006
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    wmonastra Junior Member

    Hahaha, I know the feeling.....not sure what part of the world you're in...but here in NZ it's a mess....and there is a lot of strong conversations at the moment of us heading back into another lockdown (grrrrrr)
     
  5. mitchgrunes
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    mitchgrunes Senior Member

    Some survivalists assume a complete breakdown of civilization is imminent. I don't.

    So, maybe a shallow draft boat that can beach on relatively rough terrain? So you can recover goods and possibly people from recently submerged land, or land recently surrounded by water?

    If you do assume a breakdown, you might want protected deck or greenhouse space to grow your own food? Though - some people think global warming might actually increase net world agricultural production. I don't know the details, but perhaps land in cold climates, like Northern Canada and Russia, could become more productive.
     
  6. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    I think it might be easier to harvest the natural vegetation that already grows in aquatic environments, such as algae and kelp.
     
  7. mitchgrunes
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    mitchgrunes Senior Member

    OK. But if you are talking salt water vegetation, won't it be high in salt (specifically, sodium)? And I wonder whether algae and kelp can be a complete healthy diet.

    Another issue is that seafood is becoming increasingly polluted, with mercury and other "heavy metals", and such. One can argue that seafood "should" only be a small part of your diet.

    Then again, as I said, I personally don't anticipate a complete breakdown of civilization. If we had one, keeping most types of boats in operation would be hard. Even if the sea level rises by 50' (which seems a bit extreme), which is an awful lot, there will still be a lot of civilization and cultivatable land left.

    There are lots of fun websites that show what areas are likely to flood given expected sea level rise in any particular year. Perhaps you should add about 10 feet (or about 3 meters) to take into account major storm surges - a lot of them don't, but just consider regular "high tide" elevations. Many models claim warmer weather brings more and stronger storms.

    And they also don't take into account likely increased erosion of land near the water.

    Regardless of whether they believe the worst projections, someone could design and sell low maintenance boats and survival systems aimed at people who worry about sea level rise, that they could live on semi-independently long term. They don't have to believe in the end of the world to profit from those who do.
     
  8. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    Seawater does, but I don't know if marine vegetation does. You'd still need a desalination plant for drinking water--but if you captured the salt, you could sell it onshore.
    If we're talking TEOTWAWKI, e.g., widespread economic collapse, well, beggars can't be choosers.

    Another problem with this idea is that a person needs to eat a lot more rapidly than plants can grow to provide food, so a floating greenhouse/garden would have to be really big to support only a small number of people. It would be a big operation. Think about herbivores: they eat all day long. Want a little animal protein to go with your salad? Consider 'cultured' meat. You can still have your beef or chicken without having live animals consuming your vegetable crops. Or, eat bugs.
     
  9. mitchgrunes
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    mitchgrunes Senior Member

    Good points!

    Does cultured meat require a pretty elaborate laboratory to produce? is it expected to be practical aboard a small boat or ship?

    If you have a desalinization plant, you can maybe wash out most of the salt and other excess electrolytes. So - would other seafood, like fish, become more plentiful, with all the new continental shelf? For that matter, maybe we will see more swampland and bogs.

    But maybe we are talking about the wrong type of "boat". How about a a mangrove forest, or one of the several types of "floating island"?

    Or perhaps one of the several proposed types of "floating city"?

    Interesting: there have been several threads on this forum that have already looked at floating city design.

    But none, AFAIK, have looked at floating cities built on natural floating islands or mangrove forests... I wonder if you could make that work.

    Though I'm not sure any of the natural floating bases would weather storms well. Unless - could one genetically engineer a mangrove forest that would? Picture a root system that untangles itself under tension as storm surges cause it to rise.

    I also picture a lot of seasick residents in such storms. :eek:

    Except of course for the hard core surfers and storm wave boaters who already live and pray for storms.

    Many of these ideas are experimental or future tech, AFAIK, not practical at this time, or maybe too expensive for mass settlement. I don't have a clear idea of how practical they could be.

    But floating islands and mangrove forests aren't future tech. They could be created in the new shallow waters. Adjacent somewhat deeper shallow waters might even act as a storm break.

    Have I gone too far off-topic? Somehow I don't think this is what the original poster had in mind. I bet that person was looking for a single family to live off-grid, not a community. But these ideas are very much in line with possible solutions to new land for displaced coastal dwellers, and the floating cities concept was, AFAIK, developed explicitly for that purpose.

    After all, the fundamental problem with settling sea level refugees on land with current low population levels, the obvious alternative, is that the countries that have such low density areas might not want to let in a flood of refugees from countries too poor or too badly governed to build shore breaks, dykes, etc. In the past, when mass immigration has occurred, there has often been a good deal of resentment. Creating new (floating) "land" might solve the problem in a different way.
     
  10. wmonastra
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    wmonastra Junior Member

    I like the idea of the floating "city" concept...but not too sure how well it may work..... (it wont work for me as i love sailing too much)
    There is a movie just released on netflix (at least here in nz) about an Italian man who built his own island....not seen it but looks good....

    In regards to the mangrove idea....isn't there a lot of mangroves and little communities in the Florida area?? i know its a redneck area...but they seem to make it work.....I guess that is one option..

    As i am the o.p o_o its not too far off topic lol.... when these sorts of chats come about its always so cool to see and read other peoples ideas...

    As for the likes of me....I like to keep moving...I feel it maybe safer that way....the idea of the island community like mentioned in the above in some ways is not a silly idea....even solo sailors like myself will need to come in to somewhere at some point for resupply, work on the boat...meet new people and get updated intel etc etc...

    I guess for me....the idea of being able to move/sail at a moments notice is key... others will feel safer in a community, or with a group....I'm happy to join others and help where and when needed and have no issues with this....but if and when it hits the fan......for me....I need an out, a way to get to safety as quick as possible.... :)
     
  11. wmonastra
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    wmonastra Junior Member

    It's interesting that you mentioned being flooded etc....I've had these chats with fellow work mates, and they say the same thing.... maybe what you say in regards to submerged land/flooding...there is a lot of truth to it? I've not noticed it here in nz but that's not to say in other countries there is a rise in water levels....living on a yacht I guess i don't tend to feel or notice it as the boat just floats no matter what :p. maybe you're onto something here?? ;)
     
  12. mitchgrunes
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    mitchgrunes Senior Member

    I think not all mangroves form floating islands. Some just live in shallow saline water.

    Florida isn't all "rednecks". I don't know whether anyone has settled long term on mangrove forest islands, though some around Florida have campsites.

    Most of Florida, if an old first year geology textbook was right, was NOT Mangrove forest, but was previous sea floor that lifted out of the ocean when a previous ice age tilted North America towards the Northeast, due to the weight of the ice. Perhaps in the very long term, much of it will submerge again, as the ice in and around Alaska melts. In fact, that currently already accounts for some of the rising sea levels along the SE Atlantic coast of North America.

    To me, a major potential problem with preparing for a particular future apocalypse, is that there are too many possible future apocalypses possible, that require different preparation to alleviate. Pandemics. (Did you know that in 2017 the John Hopkins University SPARS project anticipated a near future pandemic very similar to Covid-19? But Covid-19 isn't a full scale apocalypse. How about something more lethal, like an antibiotic resistant pneumonic plague? Or something akin to AIDS that isn't detected until too late? Or Something extra-terrestrial, like in The Andromeda Strain? Or a bioengineered strain, like in The White Plague.) A new life-form that makes Earth's atmosphere or waters toxic. (It's happened before - photosynthetic organisms created an atmosphere and eventually an ocean that is rich in Oxygen, a highly reactive chemical that must have wiped out a huge number of life forms.) An initially life-giving drug that has unanticipated long term consequences. A major coronal mass ejection or nearby supernova that happens to direct it's radiation stream towards the earth. Global thermonuclear war. A new earthworm parasite that makes agriculture much less efficient. A new phytoplankton parasite that destroys most of it. A "planet killer" asteroid or comet. A major league super volcano, or chain of volcanoes, along the lines of the ones that have been postulated to have created the Permian extinction event, which killed almost everything on Earth. It could create global warming, global cooling (e.g., another "iceball earth" era?), and/or anoxic (low oxygen) atmospheric conditions that your boat wouldn't escape. (There have, BTW, already been several large scale extinction events in Earth's history.) Alien invasion. Something that rapidly accelerates the population explosion. A nasty computer virus or worm. (Is life worth living without smarthphones and The Internet? :)) A nasty AI. Any of the various apocalypses that various religions anticipate. A god who replaces humans with a new and improved model. The breakdown of the computer running the simulation universe in which we exist. Etc.

    These are all the stuff of science fiction, but they aren't implausible.

    There are people who think we should settle other planets to better perpetuate the human race - but that won't help the people already on Earth. Your ocean going vessel won't be able to leave the Earth, even if you get sufficient warning.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2022
  13. comfisherman
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    comfisherman Senior Member

    Wrapping up a build now that was first conceived in 2009. Didn't want to build it until I'd fully established myself in the industry in case it was a flop it's better to be able to absorb it.

    Next one is going to be the culmination of my last 3 boats lessons learned.

    Looking at the project going forward, probably going 19mm for the whole set of forward facing windows not just the two directly near the helm. We had the biggest flow of ice in many many years and it was my first season exclusively on frp instead of steel. I'll be adding a fair bit at the belt so the outer layers can be sacrificial, from there we'll adjust and add uhmw if it looks necessary.

    Probably add a redundant hydraulic system off the bug generator and add a gyrocompass to the autopilot as a backup to the GPS compass. Maybe a second radar on a non integrated system.

    Aside from that components are up and lead times are long so most of my changes are budget acceptance and dealing with absurd lead times. My state had regional lock down policy only the big city did the masks/lock downs my local port went wild but was almost universally ignored and then gave it up in 2020. Have followed the some YouTube kiwis..... yall have had it a lot different than us. As such my plans were made abit more spendy and slower but no different.
     
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  14. wmonastra
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    wmonastra Junior Member

    Cool....I'd love to see the plans of the boat... I think lockdowns were different all over the world....I know we had it pretty hard in nz....yet i know those across the ditch in aussie feel they had it worse.....

    I also know of sailors who have left nz (and aussie) to sail in the direction of Alaska to some sort of "safe haven." Word is that there is about 100 plus boats said to be joining some form of community over your way (I guess as its more remote in some areas).... I know of 3 yachts that left nz late last year.... so it would be interesting to learn more about this.

    Would love to see some pictures or plans of your build
     

  15. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    Yes, I suspect any usable volume of the product would require a very large and very expensive facility. Raising insects for food is very cheap and easy, and they're popular in many parts of the world already.
    I'm not sure that would be a good idea; it sounds like you'd be using your fresh water for it, so you'd need another desalination plant (or a bigger one). Besides, that rinsing process may not even be needed. I haven't looked into it, but plants and animals have the same requirements (or close enough) to balance electrolytes at the cellular level. Don't quote me on any of that, though.
    Yes, I think that's what a seagoing farm would look like, and I think it would need to be kept in relatively sheltered waters.
    Extraterrestrial colonization isn't intended to help the people on Earth; among other things, it's to make sure the species survives in case Earth becomes uninhabitable. As someone said, 'There is no Planet B.' It's also an easy way to quarantine a portion of humanity from disease, among other things. Sadly, though, bad politics can kill people anywhere, and it doesn't look like we've evolved beyond that threat.
    Read The Ends of the World by Peter Brannen. I think he counted seven, not including the Great Oxygenation Event.
     
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