cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Vega, Apr 28, 2006.

  1. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Welcome to the thread Tad and thanks for the imput.
    I agree with you.
    I am going to look at those boats.

    Best regards

    Paulo
     
  2. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    Tad - always nice to have your experienced input - welcome to the discussion. Of the boats that you list, really only the Mariner and Krogen would really be considered as displacement cruisers. I don't mean that the others weren't originally intended that way, but they are all massively overpowered to achieve displacement speeds. It demonstrates just how difficult it is to find sesnsible examples of production displacement boats.

    Vega - sorry, but I respectfully disagree. Trust me - I know what I was referring to when I said that it's not always cheaper to own and operate a sailboat. If I had meant that it's cheaper to have a budget sailboat than a budget powerboat, then I would have said so. Regardless of the context of Fred's post, that's NOT what I meant.

    I also find it difficult to see how you can extrapolate from Dashew's comparison to say the boat would be 12% more expensive to operate in Europe, given that you (or I) don't know all the parameters (and the weight given to them) that he used to arrive at his numbers. Now you may well be correct - it may indeed cost more to operate the powerboat in Europe, but it still doesn't alter the fact that under the circumstances in which he will operate the boat it will be less expensive than their equivalent sailboat.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not against sailboats. At the end of the day, you choose a sailboat because you like sailing, and a powerboat because you enjoy power cruising. You buy within your desired genre the boat that you can afford...
     
  3. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Hum, I don't agree with you. That boat, like the Andreyale is not an oceangoing boat, but in semi-protected waters they can cruise in style. They have not the interior space of a 40ft sailing boat, but for a couple they are alright and have a very nice outside space. For having the same interior space of the Oceanis (for two couples) you would have to go for the bigger boat and the big bucks, but the Adreyale 15 m is beautiful, much nicer than the 12m.

    I have to say that the Oceanis doesn't come close in style.

    They have an Interesting fuel consumption and a nice speed for few bucks, at least comparing with other motorboats.

    “ The new Andreyale 40 from French boat builder Latitude 46 takes its styling cues from the classic American commuter yachts of the ’20s and ’30s, but draws on modern construction methods….
    the semi-displacement hull is made of hand laid-up fiberglass, as is the deck, and its plumb bow and slight flare are built to shoulder through heavy coastal seas.
    I took the wheel in Fisher’s Island Sound off Noank, Conn. The 40 turned easily in its own length, and the twin three-blade props provided plenty of bite. Once on plane, I found the boat had a couple of sweet spots on the acceleration curve: one at 1500 rpm (7.3 knots) and another at 3000 rpm (14.3 knots). According to Rodgers, the 40 gets 2 mpg at 15 knots for an approximate range of 264 nautical miles.
    I don’t think I’d want to cruise extensively in this boat with more than two people aboard. But as a couple’s gift to themselves after years of hard work, you’d be hard-pressed to find a more romantic retirement than chasing the horizon on board the Andreyale 40.”

    From a test published in Motorboating Magazine, link posted by fcfc
    http://www.motorboating.com/motorboat/seatrials/article/0,12696,553628,00.html
     

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  4. Milan
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    Milan Senior Member

    "…welcome to this discussion…"

    Thanks Paulo. I was very busy last couple of months, didn't have the time to take part in the forum discussions, although I saw quite a few interesting themes.

    Talking about economical power boat, I think we should first identify few basic principles that are necessary for economical powering. First, boat should be cheap to build - it means using economical material and fast and simple building method. As this would be an offshore cruiser, seaworthiness and basic structural strength are priorities. She must be low resistance, easy driving type hull, for reasonable average speed with a small engine. => I think that the best way to achieve this goals is to build her in steel, one or two chines, one engine, one shaft, flatfish mid section, narrow. (length / beam at least 1 / 4, better 1 / 5).

    Prices of the sailing boats versus power boats: the cheapest possible boat is a sailing boat, (if you go back to the basics), forgo the engine, use the tree for the mast, make your self sails from the rice sacks, and connect them to the mast with pieces of rope. But modern sailing boats are very different. They now heave very powerful engines and mast, rigging and sails cost around 30% of the total price of the boat. Suppose that powerboat is made for the same pile of money as Oceanis - Get rid of the ballast and fin => lighter boat, less wetted area. Get rid of the mast and rigging - less windage and saving of 30%. (Steadying sails will be necessary but it would cost tiny fraction of proper rig. Squeeze the hull in the middle from 4 m to 3 m. Stretch the hull length to the 15 m. Engine can be same as for the Oceanis, and power boat will motor faster and consume less fuel then Oceanis.

    "…that description suits very well to some lifeguard boats. A boat like that would be very uncomfortable in heavy seas, but if built very strongly in metal with special windows and storm shutters, it would be a very seaworthy boat, but also a hugely expensive boat. Do you have an idea of the price of a lifeguard boat?

    …they are huge, comparing with 40ft, and they have to be, to be seaworthy with a relatively small beam. That hull design is not really suitable to a small 40ft boat, if you want to have an offshore cruising boat…"

    I don't think that boat like that have to have uncomfortable motion in the waves. You probably think that because narrow boat doesn't have a lot of form stability. But motion is influenced by other factors as well - flatfish mid section, and steadying sails will help considerably. If that's not enough maybe some water ballast thanks on the sides for controlling quickens of the rolling.

    Why you think that such boat should be expensive? Real lifeguard boats are expensive, especially modern fast ones, because they use huge engines and lot of special equipment and such. But I'm talking about previous generation of boats designed for moderate displacement speed. There is nothing particularly expensive in their basic concept. Strength comes naturally to the steel boat, you don't need special expensive tricks. If kept small, windows don't have to be very special to resist force of water if hit by the wave. Storm-proof hatches are also easy to execute in metal. I agree about the length, she heave to be considerably longer then 40 ft, I think around 50ft. But length is not good comparison, volume or displacement is better and price is the best. Length alone is cheap, it's just a little bit more hull material, expensive stuff stays the same.

    I think that it can be done. Other question all together is who would want such a boat. I don't think that motor boaters would like her. She would probably appeal more to the sailors, but sailors want to sail. I'm into sailing myself and motoring looks pretty boring to me, although, I acknowledge that there is something to be sad for the boat for long passages which can keep constant cruising speed of around 8 - 9 knots, day and night, running or biting, crew worm, dry and comfortable. But then again, is it a fun to cross the ocean without being wet, tired and miserable? I shall stick to the sails.

    It's getting really late here, I have to stop. Tomrow, I'll go to sail for a few days. I'll be back at Tusday, hope to elaborate further on this.

    Best regards,

    Milan
     
  5. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    Tad brought up the subject of 2nd hand boats, and it got me thinking about the boats that my family owns.
    My parents have an Offshore 48, which is a semi-displacement power boat - and a very poor example of economical boating!:D
    My sister now operates the 1976 36ft CheoyLee that my parents used to have. She's a displacement cruiser with a pair 120hp Leihman diesels. She too is somewhat overpowered (the boat was originally designed to have a single Leihman), but is otherwise an excellent cruiser. She carries 3 1/2 tons of fuel and 2 1/2 tons of water. Running on one motor, the boat gets about 4 nmpg.

    My brother-in-law is a dedicated sailor and has a 40ft Adams. She's not as well fitted out as the Cheoy Lee, nor does she have anything like the interior volume, in spite of being a reasonably beamy boat. I can't remember exactly what motor she has, but it's around 40hp. She's also a little younger, but by the time he's finished with a fairly extensive re-fit the two boats should be worth about the same amount of money - about 150K AUD.

    Tasmania is blessed with some of the best cruising grounds in the world, and we use our boats at least as much as other people here do. Yet on average we put only about 100hrs on the motor(s) per year. That equates to approximately 200 gallons, or 900 litres of fuel. at about $1.50 per litre, thats $1800 per year.
    The sailboat averages 7 nmpg at 7 knots and he puts on about 50 hrs each year. That equates to about $350 per year in fuel, so he's $1450 ahead on fuel costs.
    Only the powerboat is kept in a marina, but if both were, the extra length would cost the sailboat about $200 extra each year.

    We can very reliably expect to get over 10,000 hrs out of the diesels before they require any major work. We pulled them apart after 2000 hrs and simply bolted them back together as they were as good as new. On that basis we wouldn't expect to perform anything much other than routine maintenance for at least another 7000 hrs - or 70 years!!! Assume about $500 each year for that.
    The little diesel in the sailboat is more highly stressed and as such is likely to require more work, even though it operates less. But let's assume that it too requires no major work - probably costing about $200 each year.
    Antifouling, insurance and other general maintenance costs for the two boats should be about the same.
    Sails for the yacht cost about $20,000 and will require replacing about every 10 years. Sheets etc need replacing about every 3 years and cost about $1000.

    So, over the next 10 years, fuel and engine maintenance will cost about $23,000 for the 36ft displacement powerboat. Fuel, engine maintenance, extra marina fees, replacement sails etc for the sailboat will cost about $30,500.

    Now this is a very bare-bones comparison, but unless I've mistakenly left something major out, it clearly demonstrates my point once again. I've intentionally ignored depreciation, as these boats are both 20+ years old it will probably be afflicted on their owners at about the same rate...
    Sure - fuel costs will rise, but so will everything else and without the benefit of knowing the future it is only sensible to conduct the comparisons based on todays prices. Equally, If we were to suddenly decide to circumnavigate Australia the fuel cost for the powerboat might soon narrow the gap. But you could still travel an extra 4000nm before the costs would become the same (and that's without taking into account any extra engine hrs on the sailboat).
     
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  6. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Well, this is your thread, of course, but let me point out some personal thoughts.

    First, I don't like the Oceanis range of boats. I find them the kind of impersonal, egg-marina-style, internal volume oriented (beamy and high freeboard), good weather island-hoppers, mass production boats. Not really serious cruisers, in my humble opinion. Neither I like Bavarias.

    Having expressed this rude opinion, I have to say it doesn't seems fair to me to compare motor boats and sailing boats fixing length, and then compare living area. I think it is more fair to fix living area and then find the equivalent length for a single decked efficient motor boat, if that's what you pretend.

    For short good weather trips, yes, conmmuter style motor boats can be a very nice alternative to sailing boats, specially when you're getting old. But you'll pay more at marinas because of the increased lenght...An strong reason to go trawlers....

    For all around cruising, I stubborngly believe well conceived sail-efficient motorsailers are the answer to economic and safe all around cruising.

    The SteadySailer is a nice mix between displacement conmuters and sailing boats, thus providing the safety of auxiliary sails, making her able for long distance cruising. The concept can be downsized, absolutely, and deserves to be considered as an alternative.
     
  7. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    On this I think we would agree:D so long as you enjoy sailing and don't mind tripping over all the crap that litters the decks of sailboats ;)

    One of my personal favourites (though definitely more sail oriented than motor) is the Buizzen 48

    http://www.cys.com.au/buizen/48/index.htm
     
  8. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    The problem here is CRUISING has not been defined.

    To some a "Cruise" is a trip across the sea , or any small ocean.

    To others is the "Cruising Season" is 100 hours of use per year.

    Just as a day sailor has different goals , and Co$ts ,

    So does CRUISING , have a variety of meanings.

    Perhaps we can use CRUISING as the term for coastal craft that just do occasional trips ,
    and VOYAGING for the boats that need longer ocean worthy legs?


    FAST FRED
     
  9. fcfc
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    fcfc Senior Member

    do not confuse motoring and use.

    Someone starting saturday motoring 4 hours to next anchorage, staying the nigth, and back on sunday will be motoring 8 hours, but uses the boat 30 to 36 hours.

    Same for voyaging and cruise. Whatabout the guy who sail 2 or 3 days an ocean part, then stay at place a month or so nether sailing for more than 2 hours, and perhaps staying anchored at the same place a full week.

    Another point for willalison, sails can be changed about 10 years, but nothing prevents you to keep them for any reason twelve years or more. the sailboat will still sail. perhaps not optimally, but will sail. A powerboat with an empty tank will not go very far.
     
  10. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Interesting proposition.
    Maybe another posibility is COASTING and VOYAGING, being CRUISING a general term.

    Willallison,
    Nice boat, the Buizen 48. I didn't know it. Thanks for the info.

    Following Paulo's posts on conmuters, what about this 44 from Parker Marine?
    http://www.parker-marine.com/com44page.htm
     

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  11. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Guillermo, nice boat (I have posted that one on the post 10 of this thread:p )

    For all the others and for you too: God work guys, lots of interesting stuff,

    I am working, I will get back when I finish with this.
     
  12. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member



    Milan, that’s not about building a boat.

    This thread is about “Low Budget cruising” but it is also about the typical boat owner and about what the market has to offer.

    Typical boat owner does not make his own boat, he buys a used one or goes to a boat show and buys a brand new one.

    If there is a need in the market, then there is a boat ore several boats for that market niche. If that kind of boat does not exist in the market, then it is pointless to make one, because that means that kind of boat has no real interest, except to some very few and particular guys.

    He could go for the second hand boat, but it is very tricky to make comparisons about 2nd hand boats, because prices can vary a lot. Besides this it is also a kind of search about what offer has the world market nowadays about low cost, low maintenance cruising motorboats.

    And it is about comparing one, or several motorboats, between the best choices regarding economy, with a typical low budget cruising sailing boat and find out about the differences in global budget for several annual cruising mileage:

    (initial price-resale value after 10 years + maintenance costs + fuel costs)

    So, if you can find this kind of boat in the market (new) that suits these criteria, please post them.

    About steel boats (market new boats), my experience tells me that they are a lot more expensive than fiberglass boats. They are also heavier and need bigger motors, but please give it a try. Holland is a good place to find them.

    About the lack of appeal to this kind of boat to motorboaters, well, I believe that there are among them some rare sailors, and that this kind of boat would appeal to them.

    Fact is that we have found some motorboats in the market that fit the bill, regarding economical cruising. So I guess it is not an endangered species, and with the price of fuel going up, I believe these boats will be more popular in the future.

    Regards,

    Paulo
     
  13. fcfc
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    fcfc Senior Member

    What catch me in this boat is its weigth.
    10000 lbs = 4.5 t, twin yanmar 125 hp included. (4jh3 dte is 125 hp 86 kW, dry weigth 260 kg 560 lbs).

    That leave about 4 T (8800 lbs) for the complete hull and all arrangement for 13m lwl (42"8).

    That is on the very light side. an oceanis 393 (wider, but 3 ft shorter) weigths without ballast 6 t (13000 lbs). Lighter than an andreyale 40 or rangeboat too. Although both have the same beam and shorter.

    A similar powerboat (about same length, same beam, same weigth) is http://www.georgebuehler.com/Pilgrim.html . But this later looks very light, and even with a 10 - 20 hp engine and flat bottom , it is nearly 10 % heavier. (Listed as 10,941 lbs ).
     
  14. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    It is all right, not a problem Willallison, but Fred was talking about “Low Budget cruising” and I am talking about that too.

    That’s what this thread is about.

    About the 12%, it is not difficult. He gave you two different prices of fuel, maintained all the parameters and has said how much they modify the % of cost between sail boat and motorboat. Extrapolating from that you can find what will happen with any fuel price regarding % of costs between both boats , maintaining all other parameters ( I don’t need to know what they are) .

    What I was saying is that he has obviously calculated the operating costs for both boats for a long period of time (he talks about changing the gearbox) but disregarded the sharp rise on fuel price.
    I mean, 15 years from now, the proportion between the rise of prices (do to the inflation) in the cost of the rig or the sails, on one side, and the engines, on the other side, would be the same.
    But regarding the fuel, it is going to rise a lot more than the inflation, say 50% if you are lucky. He obviously didn’t consider this in his calculations.
    If he had done that, the outcome would have been very much the opposite.
     

  15. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    It is all right, not a problem Willallison, but Fred was talking about “Low Budget cruising” and I am talking about that too.

    That’s what this thread is about.

    About the 12%, it is not difficult. He gave you two different prices of fuel, maintained all the parameters and has said how much they modify the % of cost between sail boat and motorboat. Extrapolating from that you can find what will happen with any fuel price regarding % of costs between both boats , maintaining all other parameters ( I don’t need to know what they are) .

    What I was saying is that he has obviously calculated the operating costs for both boats for a long period of time (he talks about changing the gearbox) but disregarded the sharp rise on fuel price.
    I mean, 15 years from now, the proportion between the rise of prices (do to the inflation) in the cost of the rig or the sails, on one side, and the engines, on the other side, would be the same.
    But regarding the fuel, it is going to rise a lot more than the inflation, say 50% if you are lucky. He obviously didn’t consider this in his calculations.
    If he had done that, the outcome would have been very much the opposite.
     
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