Peoples Foiler :aeroSKIFF™ / M4

$15,000 foiler or for the price the price of a bicycle ... hmmm ... tough choice?

 

foiler

Foilers should be able to jump well in much lighter air and flatter comditions then does a Windsurfer and in conditions between more or less 8-15knots of wind the foiler should be faster. And the foiler is a much easier and more comfortable boat to sail and to learn to sail(and jump) than a windsurfer.In addition, the foiler has a MUCH wider crew weight range without having to change rigs or hulls.
As to cost : if a company like Yamaha put it's resources behind a Peoples Foiler there would be a good chance of having boats available in the price range of a PWC which is something that could happen should gas prices continue to rise.

 

why would you want to jump a foiler? it would slow down upon impact(reentry) with the water. Not to manage the fatigue the foils would eventually suffer from due to repeated smashing back into the water.

 

foiler jumping

Because it has the potential to be loads of fun!

 

If people start trying to jump these things, pitchpoling(both normally and bow over stern) will become a major problem. The only way you are controlling the pitch of the hull is through the foils. Once they become airborne, you have given away any control you may have had, and if you didnt launch perfectly, you are screwed.

Though you are right, that may appeal to a percentage of the population.

 

You are planning to have enough control throw to jump the foiler in flat water? That would be very cool.

I could argue that sailboards are easy to learn to sail, my experience is that high performance boats like I14's (I've never sailed a Moth) had a steeper learning curve than a sailboard. Sailing at wave jumping, surfing speeds may well turn the balance back to the foiler.

That the foiler has a wider wind and weight range is moot in the recreational market. Like bicycles, people will buy a board and rig that suits the "normal" conditions for their sailing area. A majority of recreational sailboarders don't own a second rig.

I could be very wrong, but the people that buy PWC's don't strike me as the kind of people that would ever even consider a sailing craft of any sort. I cannot see Pamela Anderson types on foils, PWC's yes, foils no.

Roto-moulded beach cats and sailboards fit the warm water rec sailor quite well. They don't give a hoot about how fast or how well it points, easy to sail and fun are the requirements. Hobie Waves with blown-out sails are perfect for resort boats. You couldn't capsize one if you tried. They sail just well enough that you can feel like you are sailing fast and coming back through the surf is a hoot. People line up to sail them.

I don't see a foiler or any other non-idiot proof boat getting much of the rec-sailor market. When you move into high performance sailing, you lose the rec-sail market and have to compete with established classes. People that are already convinced that $15,000 for a toy boat is reasonable.

I sincerely wish you luck, I just don't see it.

 

foilers/windsurfers/cats

I don't know the statisics on windsurfers or what's happening in other area's of the country. But I do know that at the Calema site in Merritt Island ,Florida 15-30 windsurfers sail on any given weekend.
You said:"They don't give a hoot about how fast or how well it points.." Well, these people are only interested in sailing in 12-15 or above for the most part though a very few will go "sailing" in lighter conditions.. For the most part the people that sail at this site are totally performance -and speed- oriented.
You said:"..people will buy a board and rig that suits the "normal" conditions for their sailing area." Perhaps but not the vast majority of boardsailors at this location: they have a quiver of rigs and usually more than one board.
The majority of people who sail windsurfer's at this location spend thousands on the sport-I'd bet that well over half of them have more than 10 grand invested in their equipment.
The other group that frequents this site is 10-15 beachcats from the Hobie fleet(that is now mostly Blades, Nacra's and F18's). These people are speed freaks for sure and ripe for becoming foiler jockey's where they would achieve cat speeds in less wind with a lighter boat and be able to jump as well.
My point is that if we can combine foiling, jumping and ease of sailing in the right package it is very likely to takeoff big time with performance excitement/fun oriented crowd-a crowd that will only grow as the energy disaster deepens.

 

To me it seems that these foilers are directed towards the same people that buy kiteboards. It seems that most of those are at the beginning of their thirties, well-educated (good income), and like something "wild" (It could have been me, I actually considered one of those, but decided that I want to be able to have the feel of a real deck under my feet and be able to go potholing in it. And to persuade my gf to have some fun with me).

If they knew about these things, I'm sure it could sell.

Even though I'm building a "real" boat (albeit a very small one), I, for one, wouldn't mind paying that sum of money for a toy. Heck, it's still helluvalot cheaper than buying a cigarette-boat (not that I would want one of those).

I definately think there's a market for these things, but it's certainly not a "people's foiler". More like the "Pre-midlife crisis toy for rich kids".

 

foiler cost

Thanks ,DB. But I wouldn't focus too much on the $15,000 price which is a low production guesstimate. Whether the new Peoples Foiler is an aeroSKIFF™, M4 or some other version many things could affect pricing including the involvement of a large company. Time will tell.....

 

True, Doug - Hopefully it will indeed become relatively cheap.

I'm thinking that if it could be priced at under DKK 60.000 (just a tad under 10K U$) it will sell here.

 

In SF there are a similar number of hard core boarders, both sail and kite. if you go to sites that have speed inducing conditions you will see exactly what you describe.

Now go to places with more normal (+/-10 knots) conditions where the PWC crowd and sail in swim suit (rather than wet suit)crowd and water skiers hang out. That's where the mass market is. The full flotation BIC boards etc.

The foiler concept is aimed at the lunatic fringe of sailing (as are sinker boards, and the previous foilers). Note that the Wave has died, while the non-foil Windrider is still on the market. I've seen middle aged couples sailing Windriders of the beach here in BC. In the summer months the wind speed is 6-10 on good days, yet the sailing centre is packed every weekend, skiffs, dinghies, cats, canoes etc. A multi hundred sailor market and I've never seen even one foiler (of any sort). Conditions that suit foilers are winter conditions here, frost-bite only $15,000 foilers would be a very tough sell.

You need to look at potential market; Warm water sailing and % of days that the wind would support foiling. That severely limits the market areas. I'd be surprised if 20% of US and Canadian sites have the combination of conditions that the foilers need to be a choice for Joe Average. From that 20% of Joe's that might consider a foiler, what % would consider spending $15,000? 10-15%? Of those with $15,000 budgets for toys (that is what rec sailing is) how many will choose a boat that has no place to sun-bathe over a beach cat? At least with a Cat you can imagine Pamela Anderson lounging on the tramp and handing you a beer. The foiler does not allow that fantasy. Assuming a 100,000 sailor market; 20,000 have sites that might work, 3000 have $15,000 to spend. These people are not innovators, they might want to be the first to have a new PWC model or the first new beach cat ... how many want to be the first to show up and let the world watch them crash and burn while learning to sail a foiler? They WILL get laughed at, they don't like that. So MAYBE 5% of your 3000 will consider a foiler. That is 150 boats in a 100,000 customer market, for a 0.15 % market share.

Yamaha, Bic, anyone that sells mass market watercraft is not likely to back a new toy with a 0.15% potential market share. Particularly in light of the Tri-Foiler and Wave failures. You are having a hard time convincing us that the foiler is a new and better concept, try convincing someone that will only hear, Sailboat, $15,000, and Hydrofoil.

You've picked a steep hill to climb.

Once again, I wish you luck. I truley do.

 

aeroSKIFF™ / Peoples Foiler

Randy, I'm afraid I don't think that some of your core assumptions above are very accurate-but I appreciate the input. For instance, I'm behind the aeroSKIFF concept along with Eric and I can assure you that the boat is not aimed at the "Lunatic fringe of sailors". Anybody that can sail a Sunfish, Laser , Hobie 16 or Hobie Wave(not Rave) is our target market. The conditions you described are conditions in which the aeroSKIFF™ will foil! The great probability is that the pricing will be substantially lower than my guestimate above and I wouldn't put too much weight on that level of pricing in trying to analyze the concept's potential. See my last post under the Foiler 1 GP thread for more on the differences between the Rave and Hobie multifoiler's and the new two-foil monofoilers.
And speaking of Pamela Anderson and tramp space look again at Eric's drawings(plus 1' each side). And at this: is this Pamela Anderson?
robosan.jpg
http://www.moth-sailing.org/pictures/singapore/robosan.jpg
Because if it is she's sailing on a foiler Moth that has far less capacity than an aeroSKIFF...
Believe it or not the technology in this area of sailing is moving quickly-if it's not possible this week it will be next week-mainly,at this point, due to the Moth pioneers but also due the people worldwide that are working to bring monofoiling to the People.

 

By lunatic fringe I was being kind. I like lunatics, some people even consider me to be one. By lunatic fringe, I refer to the folk that are out screaming back and forth on sinker boards while the folk on shore (and non-sailors) think they have lost their minds. Adrenaline junkies is a better term.

How will the foiler sail below foiling speeds? The tri-foiler is an anchor below foiling speed, tri-foilers and tow boats are almost as much a cliche as harleys and pick-up trucks.

You might have a winner if the boat is still fun to sail in non-foiling conditions.

Another option would be to make the foiling ability an add-on option. The base boat and the foiler in non-foiling conditions should still be interesting and the adrenaline junkies would have the added fun of foiling.

Compare the two photos. Try to sell the idea of a foiler to your wife or girlfrind. Hell try to sell yourself a foiler.

 

jumping?

I don't want to rain on your parade too much, but making a foiler jump is a very bad idea.

Sure it might look spectacular - it is spectacular. A Moth leaving the water is also dangerous and could cause serious injury and significant damage.

Ask Ned Dally, who almost lost a leg in a nosedive of a conventional Moth 2 years ago. Launching a hydrofoil at 2-3 times the speed, from a height, and nose-diving in half the time is not a good idea.

Ask a hydrofoil Moth sailor on their thoughts on side-stays before you get too starry-eyed about foilers jumping out of the water.

 

Jumping

Safe jumping is not a proven capability as of yet but we believe it is possible to intentionally jump and re-enter safely. Whether or not it will work is still an open question that we are going to investigate thoroughly. Moths are not designed to intentionally jump and if they accidentally jump when using a wand the nature of the wand system allows the main foil flap to go to full up which creates maximum downforce. When the boat re-enters with the flap in that position it can be sucked down hard-and dangerously. Our system bypasses the wand for the period of the jump so that the foil is lifting at re-entry. And our foils and control systems are designed specifically to do this. Big difference and much different result I hope.