Historical multihulls

[Skip JayR]

Side effects... knowledge based decisions...

Ilan Voyageur, I think you are being overly harsh with your comments on older designs, like those from Crowther and Newick... And another of your aged and pretty useless 50 year old designs...

I have not understood Ilan's comment as a kind of "missing respect".

As I see it: Ilan's main point is to give us "no techies" a feeling about: "where starts safetyness" - under modern aspects of design, including all knowledge being available nowadays.

It does not make sense to turn the clock back and say: A design 30 years ago still is a fast boat. No doubt about that boats at such age can be fast. We have 35 year old Trimarans who win nearby every race. E.g. remembering the legendary Trimaran Adagio being built beginning of the 70th.

Naturally all potential boat owners who think seriously about buying a Trimaran, should be aware about the status of "modern design", which guarantees maximum safetyness. Under this aspect, I see Ilan's detailled insight as something very valuably.

I want throw in another aspect... which might be helpfully. - Lets take a short look at, why we appreciate elder boats - under psychologically aspects ?!

In humans mind mostly exist only an individual perception of the world. Its not the real truth and real picture which exists. Nobody in this world has a real understanding about the real reality. - Such individually understanding is driven by many different factors, e.g. unsatisfied dreams, wishes, visions... socialisation, intelligence, education... and most important: the motivation behind.

E.g. lets say: one is obsessed to sail a Trimaran and one has to realize after looking at the whole market that the own dreams cant be realized, e.g. because of low budget, or lack of knowledge/experience or because of the structure of own personality ("no risk taker"). Many reasons possible.
So instead sailing one of these amazing fast boats such a potential new owner sees on youtube or TV or on the regatta circuits he has to step-down.

Instead getting a competitive brand new 35 foot carbon Trimaran it can only be a 25 footer, being built 30 years ago... and available on the sales market of "used boats".

Naturally the mind projects the "original wishes" onto the new target of satisfaction. Some might called it "a good" or "a bad compromise".

Within this procedure of pre-selection, selections, decision making there is a psychological effect called "self-abnegation". We see this blindness heavily in politics and top manager decisions, very often from outside one can see long before the disaster coming, e.g. ignoring warnings, risks and keeping wrongly on the track of their perception. It is a very natural effect of self protection. Or lets say: "It may not be, what not may be." - Very foolish indeed. But so act humans (even the very intelligent ones.)

With sailor folks who sing their hymns to praise the boats they are sailing might have happened similarly. They ignore the technical development, as described by Ilan V.

Yes, its hard to accept that we should keep on distance to the objects of our desires, as they are not the best trimarans. Not up to date - under security aspects. - Hard reality to recognize. And its hard to accept the compromise, so far we decide for these "old boats", that we have to sail them within the lower level of security as these boats don't have the potentials compared to the modern design.

That way I have understood it... Hope Ilan, I am right !

One positive effect this self critics would have as effect onto the whole market. The "old boats" I still see in the market for huge prizes of 80-120 Thousand US dollars or more, would drastically drop down... as we more would argument from the knowledge side to know what a modern design must fulfill. We would be more sensitive. Just to give an example: I got the offer to buy a 40 Foot Trimaran; first sales offer 75 Thousand US dollar, 2nd reduced offer (by the broker): 55 Thousand US dollar... after talking two hours with the designer his opinion: The boat is more than 20 years old, it has a value of 20 Thousand US dollars.

So we clearly see and learn from Ilans insights: Non experts arent trained. Their senses dont see the lacks and weaknesses of old boats... compared with modern standards which are well known by professional designers/naval architects and come into account for their opinions and decisions.

If we'd be trained more in details... it would give space for potential buyers to take such an old boat at low prize, e.g. to enter into the segment of trimaran sailing with a first boat. And herewith get enough financial reserves to accumulate money for ordering in some few years a modern boat.... which then would not be in the range of 400-600 Thousand... probably then around 250-300,000 as the market wont be overprized.

So we should be thankfully for the Internet, for the webaster of this forum, and for guys like Ilan lifting up the curtain and we get a more clear picture about the reality.

For me, I made today a very important decision in my further process to find the trimaran I like. From a one step plan, I switch to a 3 step plan to reach my goals... it feels great !

So thanks again, Ilan.

 

[Skip JayR]

The DC-3 is a winner for sure, nothing sense has been built with that kind of durability, the lower slower flight doesn't leave environment damaging contrails and it doesn't use toxic jet fuel. It's forgiving flight envelope still keeps it in use today, when was it designed, the 1930s?

The new/old label isn't really a good one if you think about it. What to look for are the proven ones. All bad designs were new once so you can expect the same in the future. Some will be better than others.

John Marpel's boat made in 2011 1st prize by Wooden Boat magazine...

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?132522-DC-3-Trimaran-wins-Wooden-Boat-Design-Challenge

Or did you mean the airplane ?

 

[cavalier mk2]

I think I addressed where Gary is coming from much better here. This also covered suggestions for those contemplating vintage boat ownership.

I agree here with Gary but everyone has a right to their opinion. The ones from those who have actually sailed the designs they are commenting on carry more weight with me. Ilan, though, has some good insight and knowledge of the development of design and is obviously concerned that sailors don't exceed the safety envelope. His experience is very valuable. Time has given us a great way to measure how boats have stood up to the long haul. In the case of Newick it isn't hard to find racers that haven't capsized in battle such as Rogue Wave and Moxie and ones that have such as some of the Vals. It really comes down to the sailor knowing when to stop in the conditions and when to go all out. Dick's canoe bows on his old designs were very good about not tripping. Most of the inversions I heard about were sail overs where the racer put off reefing, something that happens to any design. We don't have to look too far to find plenty of the current French crop upside down because of the human element. If there is lots of power there will be accidents using it.

Just in cruising we have pushed the Nicol hard as the mountains, islands, fiords and channels of the PNW create some strong downdrafts, venturies and shifts. Learning how it handles when the chips are down hasn't been traumatic but reassuring. Still the best weapon is to try to anticipate conditions and hazards and prepare accordingly. Reefing before you get pasted coming around the lee of an island is always easier than waiting till you're in it.

As to the age of a boat it is the mileage not the years that count. All materials experience cycle fatigue as we know. Carbon fiber has excellent cycle life followed closely by wood of all things. Fiberglass isn't really very good at all. A glass racer that has had a steady track record of competing in ocean races would be pretty far down my list. When I surveyed the Vagabond I researched its history to see what it had been exposed to. It hadn't been in the ocean but had spent most of its time using the outboard to carry researchers around our killer whales, often just drifting in position. Lots of life left in that wood. I could compare this odometer to a Nicol that had sailed with a 50-100% overload twice around the world before encountering problems with the stock construction. History of these boats around the world gave me the data to know where modern reinforcements could help and what to leave alone. This is the kind of detective work one needs to do to really know a boat. Talking with Nicol sailors all over the world about their experiences and to Hedley's son Alan about the testing and development of the designs gave me good insight.

I've been lucky enough to have some long phone calls with Dick Newick over the years as I followed his designs. The beauty and easily driven shapes put them on the top of my list to build. He was the first person to say "Hey, we found a better way of doing this." Or point out when a older design would serve the purpose just as well. If I start building from scratch it will be at the least based on one of his designs. For me speed isn't the only reason to build a boat but then I'm not racing. If we painted the French racers the same could we tell them apart?

We could pick anyone of the 3 mentioned designers, Crowther, Shuttleworth or Newick and find that their designs had won and finished more ocean races than anyone commenting. These boats can still be good for something. They have been tested at sea. When contemplating the cruising or campaign of a older boat keeping within the parameters of its design is a good place to start. The center of gravity, center of effort etc.... should be monitored carefully. Adding a squaretop main to a older design is going to affect many interacting elements for a example. A wise man knows that not every new improvement is actually an improvement when applied to the old. The French are very sensible when it comes to cutting things off to start fresh. For the latest rigs and foils the latest design might be best. Just remember that this too will be an experiment to improve on the past and its history will have to be written to tell the tale of success or failure.

I'm also relieved I don't fall under the classification of Skippy's long winded psych self analysis. I needed a big affordable tri, actually went looking for a Piver then found the Nicol and did research as I'd never seen one before. For me the admiration of Newicks over the long haul is really one of art, they are sailing sculptures.

Richard knows my practical design wish side, just because Newick is on the top of the list doesn't mean other things aren't there either.

I actually think you will never get a tri Skip let alone build one. I think you'll let your thinking evolve till you've exhausted source material then move on to the next great infatuation. I don't mean this in a negative way but I've seen your sort of exploration before and it usually runs its course without getting to the goal line. The low ball offers are telling you you are trying to get there but warrantied not to get takers. I'm hoping you prove me wrong but I'm willing to bet a 6 pack of good beer to anyone (only one, I'm on a budget) who wants to champion your quest to get a boat and thinks you'll get there. So far its more of a attempt at an expose' of the world of trimarans.

 

[Ilan Voyager]

Richard you're welcome. I've worked a few years in the field as an "outsider" consultant when racing multis were plagued by structural problems and had a tendency to disintegrate in bad sea, or at least being crippled by local failures. My main job was pretty far from multis...
The present multis are the result of a collective work that lasted more than 35 years. Everybody added his stone, and the failures gave a deep understanding of the involved factors.
Thanks to the success of multis racing in France and its returns in advertising, a lot of money have been poured by the sponsors. That permitted a professional and scientific approach of multihull design, with experienced NA, able consultants and excellent shipyards, so good that I know at least three working also for the aerospace industry with very stringent norms. You can imagine the quality of the boats they build. It's a synergy.

The Crowther story is a very sad one. I have been said that the first original one built by the shipyard was not at the performance level of the competition designed by French NA. The shipyard had to modify heavily the following ones and that did not solve all the shortcomings. I agree that the shipyard was not "ethic" at all keeping the name of Crowther even if the boat was very modified by not paying the fees or reaching an agreement...
The good boat is the boat that fills your own requisites. It's a very personal choice. You have to be able to know what you want, what is needed to get the desired results and finally to know if you can afford it...Any decision is respectable if there are not internal contradictions.

In the good conditions some "vintage" are roadrunners. In the small sizes good fast boats have been designed very soon as the structural and weight problems are "easily" solved with cheap solutions. They are designed for light weather, not to affront oceans and storms. The thing becomes more and more difficult after 30 feet. For example aluminium beams have no use on bigger boats because of fatigue and corrosion, on a 25-30 feet multi it's a very good solution.
Five years ago I was asked to repair a crack on a front aluminium beam (round tube) of a 60 feet catamaran used for charter, a big Tornado. The boat was only 5 years old and made 3 very quiet Atlantic crossings. I told to the owner the beam had to be changed, and probably the rear one also...He didn't believed me, so I made 4 magnaflux tests on the upper sides that revealed the myriad of microscopic cracks in the zones of fixation with the hulls. Very bad day for the poor owner, I was so sad for him that I "forgot" my fee...
Fatigue of the metal. The beams were discretely losing their strength until the failure...A fourth Atlantic crossing, some bad sea and the cata falls apart. Using aluminium tubes as beams on a big multi is an engineering sin. But you can make a good aluminium multi if above 13 meters, the proof is Pir2, a 15.24 m 1983 trimaran foiler by Sylvestre Langevin, bullet proof, decent weight 4500 kg, it would make a good fast cruising boat nowadays with some mods to improve the amenities, after all it made the Route du Rhum 2014 in the honourable time of 18 days skipped by its amateur owner, a 58 years old car mechanic. But Langevin is a master engineer of metallic structures...

Skyp, I'm not good in psychology but I have learnt something from my experience working in teams; a fresh sight of an "educated outsider" is needed in every big project if possible. Even naive questions may reveal sometimes that something was flawed. When you have to work in a closed team for questions of secrecy, you must be very critical about the design choices and the picked solutions; failure is very close to success. Overconfidence is a killer in a lot of fields, but over-doubting paralyses. And when exploring a new field, you need luck, a lot of luck...Same for choosing a boat.

Coming back to multihull design, I do not disrespect the Ancients, some did a very good job when you consider that multis were terra incognita. A lot made very deeply flawed designs now forgotten. But all these designs are obsolete and this fact must be taken in account. That does not mean they are intrinsically bad, that means simply that the security margins, the speed capacity are not the same, and the boat has to be used accordingly. And not to make impossible claims, maybe they be were winners, now they are vintages. You can win a local regatta, but no hope in front of a serious opposition as you can find in England or France.
The Alpine 110 is a fantastic car, it was the rally world champion in 1973 but nowadays it is nothing in a serious rally competition in front of a Citroen. Obsolete...If you want one, you have to take as it is; a not so fast vintage with serious flaws of safety for the pilot and co pilot. In racing and sport motorcycles it's the same, 40 years ago the Tourist Trophy record of a lap were around 160-170 kmh, now it's 214 kmh...
The same for boats...A 1987 a top notch F40 catamaran had a top speed of 27-28 knots, a 2005 40 feet catamaran designed by Loday 40 knots 30% better...
The 60 feet Rogue Wave by Newick made the Route du Rhum 1978 in 23 days 15 hours. In 2002 the 60 feet Geant in 13 days 7 hours. In 2014 Fenetre A, only 50 feet in 11 days 5 hours, half the time of Rogue Wave, 100% faster...no need of comment.
That do not take off an ounce of their historical interest, their beauty nor pleasure of sailing. I love old multis when they were the state of art of a period.

Pics added: FenetreA a modern 50 feet twice faster that Rogue Wave. The bullet proof 32 years old foiler PIR2 (considered as patrimonial historical interest by the French authorities) and its athletic "young" skipper...
Last pic; Brittanny Ferries GB 1982 by Shuttleworth. The perfect illustration of lack of volume of rear of the ama with insufficient diagonal stability ; the rear is sunk and the attitude of the boat is not appalling.

 

[cavalier mk2]

Back to racing again .... speeds certainly have gone up but Rogue Wave was also designed to be a cruiser for 5 and served very well with a beautiful interior as the Weld family boat. The new twice as fast 50' racer is another apple /orange comparison. Is a modern boat that needs to have sail shortened early safer than a older design meant to carry sail in up to 20 knots of wind before reefing? It is an interesting question. Certainly for the average family the boat that can stand up to the gust will tolerate more inattention. Is there room for the cruising layout in the new boat and will it support the load? What will be the performance then? How will the extra weight affect the safety? Rigs grew with the desire to get record speeds in average winds but it becomes more demanding on the crew, not less. The twice as fast 50' has become a cramped, overloaded, overstressed boat when measured with the same stick and asked to perform the other designed functions of Rogue Wave. It might still be faster but it is going to be less fun, far less comfortable and more scary.

I sail to cruise not race, my expectations are modest, I plan on being faster than the monohull cruiser alternatives with a more comfortable motion and more deck space. I find I'm often faster than the catamaran cruisers too. Nobody suggested using vintage designs to race modern multihulls or hinted that it would be a good application. Some old performance boats can be good fast cruisers but as the proportions have changed that will happen less often. The modern racer is going to have to be a backpack cruiser in its post circuit life, taking up more room but having fewer amenities. To get the modern speeds the gap between racing and cruising has widened. Neither good nor bad, just apples and oranges, different.

On to the cars. Like boats vintage ones offer a different experience. In the traction control equipped Porche I am insulated from the wind, my climate is temperature controlled and the mechnical functions can be forgotten about. The handling and braking systems smooth over my goofs letting me drive ever faster.

In the 1935 Bugatti the wind is in my hair, the engine spits castor oil, the skinny tires seem like wagon wheels, braking takes planning ahead and the firewall is cooking my feet. The car hops sideways on bumps in the corners and my insurance agent has hired a hit man because it costs about 10 Porches. I have to have a French/Italian mechanic on retainer and heated garage just to start it. I couldn't be happier, more is happening, the senses more involved. For errands I have to borrow Richard's Morris Minor but that is okay because it is different enough to find in the parking lot. Horses for courses.

 

[Corley]

Back to racing again .... speeds certainly have gone up but Rogue Wave was also designed to be a cruiser for 5 and served very well with a beautiful interior as the Weld family boat. The new twice as fast 50' racer is another apple /orange comparison. Is a modern boat that needs to have sail shortened early safer than a older design meant to carry sail in up to 20 knots of wind before reefing? It is an interesting question. Certainly for the average family the boat that can stand up to the gust will tolerate more inattention. Is there room for the cruising layout in the new boat and will it support the load? What will be the performance then? How will the extra weight affect the safety? Rigs grew with the desire to get record speeds in average winds but it becomes more demanding on the crew, not less. The twice as fast 50' has become a cramped, overloaded, overstressed boat when measured with the same stick and asked to perform the other designed functions of Rogue Wave. It might still be faster but it is going to be less fun, far less comfortable and more scary.

I sail to cruise not race, my expectations are modest, I plan on being faster than the monohull cruiser alternatives with a more comfortable motion and more deck space. I find I'm often faster than the catamaran cruisers too. Nobody suggested using vintage designs to race modern multihulls or hinted that it would be a good application. Some old performance boats can be good fast cruisers but as the proportions have changed that will happen less often. The modern racer is going to have to be a backpack cruiser in its post circuit life, taking up more room but having fewer amenities. To get the modern speeds the gap between racing and cruising has widened. Neither good nor bad, just apples and oranges, different.

On to the cars. Like boats vintage ones offer a different experience. In the traction control equipped Porche I am insulated from the wind, my climate is temperature controlled and the mechnical functions can be forgotten about. The handling and braking systems smooth over my goofs letting me drive ever faster.

In the 1935 Bugatti the wind is in my hair, the engine spits castor oil, the skinny tires seem like wagon wheels, braking takes planning ahead and the firewall is cooking my feet. The car hops sideways on bumps in the corners and my insurance agent has hired a hit man because it costs about 10 Porches. I have to have a French/Italian mechanic on retainer and heated garage just to start it. I couldn't be happier, more is happening, the senses more involved. For errands I have to borrow Richard's Morris Minor but that is okay because it is different enough to find in the parking lot. Horses for courses.

Racing boats both mono and multi are certainly less commodious than they used to be. I recall a good friend in the MYCV telling me about Raw Nerve the 50' Crowther racing cat. The team were wondering why they were somewhat off the pace of similar international racing boats so they had a somewhat famous French multi racer come out and look the boat over. He took one look in the pod and said this, this, this, this and this must go gesticulating wildly!! If you're serious about performance

 

[Ilan Voyager]

Cavalier,

Yes Rogue Wave was also a crampy cruiser (i have been on...) but as it was engaged in a race for winning, that means that it was considered by the owner as a racer. He build it for racing after his other tri Gulf Streamer (also a racer made for the Ostar) was flipped by a rogue wave (hence the name...).

In the 1978 Route du Rhum 3 boats arrived in 23 days, Olympus, Kriter V the fabulous 21 m ULDB monohull, and Rogue Wave. Rogue was a top notch boat in 1978. So I'm comparing the evolution of speed on the same race with similar lengths trimaran boats which were thought to be racers at their time.
I'm not comparing apples with oranges. I'm comparing 1978 oranges with 2014 oranges, and that shows the evolution.

Several 50 and 60 feet have been successfully transformed in fast cruisers. In reasonable limits they accept more weight, and keep a good part of their speed with the cruising rig. Very safe. No hope of a floating condo, but good marine amenities. There are so many unsuccessful race boats in France for sale...Plenty end in the Caribbean Sea as charters.

You can have all the pleasure of the world with a Bugatti, that does not change the fact that the car is obsolete (witch is not a pejorative word, means simply that the car uses antique technical solutions), with primitive suspensions, inefficient brakes, bad tires and finally dangerous as it does not offer protection in case of accident.
I'm using objective words for describing rationally an objective situation, having as reference of comparison a modern car. Engineering works in that way. We can take objective measures as acceleration, top speed, braking distance, crash test etc...
Objectively a 1930 Bugatti is a "bad" car compared to a reference like a 2015 Porsche. Compared to another 1930 car as reference, the Bugatti was excellent and up to date.

 

[cavalier mk2]

Back to the yawns Ilan. A big change over time is what actually was included on a racer. Your sweeping statements obscure this fact for those who don't know the differences. Apples and oranges. In truth of the boat examples shown the newer boat could not do the same jobs as safely. Out of curiosity what kind of boat do you have and sail?

 

[Gary Baigent]

Dick Newick's Moxie and Rogue Wave are not good examples of state of the racing art from those days; they were heavy, had fixed rigs and were not at all extreme, more cruiser/racers - whereas the modern designs in comparison are flat out racing extremists. So Ilan Voyager's comparisons are definitely oranges as to pipped fruit.
A more realistic selection from the 1980s would be Marc Lombard's Lada Poch/Ker Cadelac 2 (which beat all the maxi multihulls of the time) - however the rig is fixed, non rotating and not a wing - so that makes it handicapped. But the platform for a 22 metre tri foiler is very light, 6.5 tonnes so put a modern rig on the boat and it would compare very favourably with the latest designs of today.
Another is Adrian Thompson's 18 metre Paragon - that too would give an excellent account of itself. These two are just a couple of examples but there would be more given more research. The Nigel Irens 60 Apricot of the times would also belong.

 

[Skip JayR]

Individual path.... encouraging and motivation instead of denunciation

I actually think you will never get a tri Skip let alone build one. I think you'll let your thinking evolve till you've exhausted source material then move on to the next great infatuation. I don't mean this in a negative way but I've seen your sort of exploration before and it usually runs its course without getting to the goal line. The low ball offers are telling you you are trying to get there but warrantied not to get takers. I'm hoping you prove me wrong but I'm willing to bet a 6 pack of good beer to anyone (only one, I'm on a budget) who wants to champion your quest to get a boat and thinks you'll get there. So far its more of a attempt at an expose' of the world of trimarans.

Yes, you are very wrong with your assumption. First to remember: I started to make myself confident with the idea to live on a boat, shortly. Important I use the term "idea" and not decision. This idea came up 2 months ago.

2nd: Humans have life circumstances, e.g. health problems, job responsabilities, families, partnership problems, financially issues etc. ...

All things must be brought safely and securely under one roof, otherwise it ends in chaos. Well planning, all thought through in details. As many do not, we see all the ship wrecks on land, unfinished "projects", destroyed partnerships (because of a boat), bankrupcy... I all have seen this in the lifes of others, sadly. This wont happen in mine.

I am not one of these spoilt burgeous guys, e.g. a lawyer earning 500-600 Dollars the hour (or even more).... who have 300 Thousand Dollars in the bank account (probably most then would be "black money") deposited, visiting little bit on 2 weekends boat shows and then undersigning the contract.

Many things must be brought together, first... so I see it. And thats the phase I am in ... I am in the orientation phase, to get a clear picture about the "does" and "donts". - And as I learn from week to week, it is good I dont make quick decisions. I would have sitting already in the air plane to fly to Indonesia or NewZealand if i would have been driven by impulsivity... and lost lots of money already. I live in North Europe... a very bad location looking for multihulls/trimarans. I dont have the luck to sit in Auckland or Lorient where plenty of such boats lay around waiting for a new owner.

I have no hurry... if I can make it to get a boat in 2016, then all is fine...

Another aspect: I have to bring "job" + "living" together. There are some more issues to think about. I dont target at to have a house, 2 cars + dog, and have a boat in the marina as leasure boat for weekend tours.

E.g. the technical (studio) equipment for my job is complexe... I have to deal such thematics parallely, not documented on the forum in any form. And many more issues... e.g. here goes hand in hand: registration of the boat, flag/country, e.g. ship ltd. company as owner flagged Malta, Bahamas or Gursney (English Channel Islands).
Actually there is one aspect to mention, just as another example: Yet I have not found a boat insurance which covers the technical equipment on board.

Another aspect (as last example): In Europe we dont have banks financing boat investments and living boats (as such one is my project using it for a media production company). Only one single bank in Netherlands is offering it, as there people are used to live on a boat. So parallel researches are going here about, e.g. loans by US banks.

So it goes on.... many aspects like a big puzzle, e.g. taking care about the electrification as the boat must run at least 14 days per month as "work station"... just one Solar panel is not enough. See my thread in the CF forum here...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/how-to-calculate-a-solar-system-for-a-trimaran-153248.html

So in total I bring all topics together, step-by-step... plus all must be documented internally to keep all in view.

Its easy for you cavalier, saying: This guy never gets his boat. Because you can make your own decisions much easier and quickly, based on a broad, broad range of experience, historical knowledge which I appreated a lot and it was very helpfully for me. But clearly now you overstep a line.

After the two months I am now in this thematic, little bit deeper... I developed a first feeling about Trimaran boats and the boat scene nowadays... seems you forgot, that I was out of sailing for more than 10 years... and first need an orientation what has changed.

If you like keep going with your judgements... I dont care about. This is the virtual world. You dont know nothing about the people behind, with their other obligations and responsabilities in life. And as we say: There are many different ways which lead to Rome.

Be happy, that you are free to do what you want do, quickly and efficiently.

If you can buy a ticket, jump on an airplane, fly half around the globe to proof a boat in the market (e.g. monohull or multihull), order a surveyor (even with the risk, that this money might be lost), do this 3-4 times in row and then call your lawyer for making the contract after you dealt mouthly the deal with the owner... then be happy. I am not a fool to waste 10-15 thousand bugs for travelling expenses.

So is not life... only for the very rich ones who can snip with a finger to get what they want. We are all not free by given responsabilities, which come very often from outside. E.g. some must take care for the 90 year old grandma, nursing her after she got a brain stroke or whatever...

Yes, we will see... if I will reach my target. It is a challenge for myself. But exactly thats it is. Its my challenge. Not yours or of anybody else. - So you have not the right to give such harsh critics, neither to me or anybody else in this or any forum.
Till that, I think you should keep silent to judge about people from distance, cavalier. You dont have the fully bright picture you'd need to come to any form of objectively result.

So lets focus on what this Forum is for: talking about and learning from given questions. This is the main aspect of a forum. And not demotivating people, which is the only "negative effect" of your critics, cavalier. Not very smart in my understanding.

Luckily I am elder than 50, so it wont affect me your critics and negative jdugement... but I expect from you, that you dont talk similarly to younger people, instead you should encourage them and show them the path... with the tons of your experience. Be happy, that you have found your boat since long and your life is well organized on the right track.

If you are really so smart as you pretend, why not showing how it goes to get a boat, quickly ? - That would be something worthfully... and not only giving critics, to put a brave face on like the "big boss with big trousers" and announce a beer bet. Cheap... I'd expect at least to bet a good bottle of Port wine !

But seriously talking: I'd call you a fool - with all your experience - if you demand from a person like me - freshly in this thematic to buy a boat within 2 months. I'd call it stubborn sillyness seeing a potential owner not proofing in details the market situation. I know boat owners who live on their boat it took them 2-3 years till they got it.... with lots of travelling, visiting marinas, negotiating with different owners etc. ...

If my postings get on your nerves, keep away from my threads, and ignore them.... this world is already full of conflicts. I dont need this in the sailing world further on privately.

And boating is not only technology, its a lot psychology behind. I know that many tech-oriented people cannot handle such aspects of a human being, as they never had been educated in it. But so it is... today I know: the human mainly is psychology. It is what makes him/her a human.

So far, its good to see what you are really thinking.... play your violin and get relaxed - Nice rest of Sunday...
----
P.S.: And last aspect... as you are musician in world music you should know it better. We both live in two different cultural traditions. I think I am not wrong that you are American, right ? - I am European (the "Old Euorpe")... so we both have very different methods to deal situatoins. What seems for you wrong, might be for me right. Germans are known historically as "thinkers" and "philosophs". Yes, we are not so pragmatically as US guys. But same we dont have such mad presidents like we - as the world - experienced with Bush era (and now repeated by Obama similarly) to control the world with NSA spying and all that madness. You should accept this that people in different cultures have different approches to life challenges... and learn from music: its the only language on planet earth, all understand. There is no conflict, no national thinking. In that sense I hope we can have here a "virtual living together" in harmony as it is possible by using the musical language.

 

[Skip JayR]

Skyp, I'm not good in psychology but I have learnt something from my experience working in teams; a fresh sight of an "educated outsider" is needed in every big project if possible. Even naive questions may reveal sometimes that something was flawed. When you have to work in a closed team for questions of secrecy, you must be very critical about the design choices and the picked solutions; failure is very close to success. Overconfidence is a killer in a lot of fields, but over-doubting paralyses. And when exploring a new field, you need luck, a lot of luck...Same for choosing a boat.

Ilan, sure... why you tell me this ??

I have seen death 5 times (electric stroke, car accident, cancer and some more)... I know that life is "just luck" to survive. There is no guarantee for anything. I know this probably better than most people here by own radically experience.

And life is a compromize in nearby everything. All the beauty surgeries of men and women in this world clearly demonstrate, that many have not accepted this in times of steadily "self optimisation".

Your comment remembers me an interview with Paul Cayard. He was asked: "What is the secret of his success?". His answer is very simple: "Make quick decisions, dont think too long" (Rec.: I started to think about living on a trimaran 2 months ago. Not very long I would say.)

Paul completed his statement more clearly. While other teams, e.g. for the Whitbread races took big efforts to find the right/perfect solutions for questions they had, Paul followed another management princips. He explained it following. "If you have a situation, where you are not very clear what is the right solution, lets say: you have solution A and B available. Then just take one solution, even not knowing if its the best one. It is not relevant which solution you take. More important that you make a decision. Better to make this decision quickly. If you should recognize, that the choosen solution is not the best, from there make another decision again."

Yes, thats the world of "racing", where you may not loose time. But so radically is not privately life. Would be crazy if we would set us so heavily under time pressure as a racing team has to do for winning... with big responsabilty against the huge financial investment of the sponsor

I dont have hurry to find a boat.... I would be a fool to do so. As I dont have a big sponsor in the back to compensate financially losses. - I made this year the decision to change my life and start living on a boat. I think you are well experienced enough to know what that means.

If I should make it in 2016 to realize my target, all is fine. I think, thats quickly enough.

Bank Populare decided in February 2015 to invest in a new Maxi Trimaran. The boat earlierst will race in 2018. Maybe for some guys here too long to wait and bet a six pack beer that this boat never will race.
http://www.thedailysail.com/offshor...mmit-to-another-five-years-and-a-new-maxi-tri

Good things need time ! - Life is not a sprint, its a marathon.

 

[Skip JayR]

A lot made very deeply flawed designs now forgotten. But all these designs are obsolete and this fact must be taken in account. That does not mean they are intrinsically bad, that means simply that the security margins, the speed capacity are not the same, and the boat has to be used accordingly. And not to make impossible claims, maybe they be were winners, now they are vintages.

Slowly I wonder about to where this discussion shall lead ? You are right, Ilan. There does not need any discussion about. Or is this here an old sailor men pension home where people like to swap around in "good old memories" ?

Its simply 1+1 = 2. We only need to remember the development of computer processors which have a huge impact onto software development Compueter Added design, 3D computer modelling etc. ...

01/04/1996: Intel Pentium - 150 MHz / 60MHz bus and 166 MHz / 66 MHz bus
07/27/2006: Intel Core 2 Duo processor E6300 (1.86 GHz, 2M Cache, 1066 Mhz FSB)
01/../2010: Intel Core i5 Desktop processor i5-650 (>3.0 GHz, 4M Cache, 3.20 GHz, 1333 MHz FSB)
...

I might remember, too: this is the thread about Historical multihulls ! - Maybe thats why your "critics" evoke some ani-pathies (not from my side). Does anyone visit a museum and see a comment beside an old painter: "Bad painted" (compared to modern painting techniques) ??

I suggest you put your very valuably input under a new topic. E.g. "Methods of development in multihull design". And start there freshly... doing a retrospective view backwards + open the door with new perspectives for the Multihull future.

Just an idea... maybe this discussion is better done in another place/thread.

 

[cavalier mk2]

Sorry for the assessment Skip, think of it as a uncharitable motivation technique. You'll show me now! Darn those big pants American know it all jet setters with silver spoon sets.

Ironically I have many of the challenges you mention. Elder care, not much money, ridiculous work load, lots of responsibilities. The beer is all I can afford. I drive a 50 year old Volvo with some subtle upgrades. If you take up the bet we can make it a cheap bottle of port, I think the beer would be the smarter choice...added together during another challenging day and you get a low tolerance for perceived baloney. Honestly Skip, a psych excursion on historical thread? Asking people to keep secrets in PMs? That is one sign of manipulation. Nobody here is going to race you for a trimaran, they are special niche boats and take a long time to sell.

I'm not sure what to tell you about finding a boat because there re some big cultural differences at work here. In places like New Zealand, Australia, Canada and the US there was and in some cases still is the pioneering spirit where if you wanted something you built it or worked hard to afford it, this is why these places became big in the multihull scene. Developing skill sets lets you skip layers of middle men.

Do your homework as you are, know the differences and the costs to get a boat to where you need it and be patient but ready to move on a deal that comes up. Good luck is important, watch the epiphanies, and build your understanding. At some point realize catamarans might work for you too. Most importantly get on the water and sail in the kinds f boats you are thinking about.

 

[cavalier mk2]

One suggestion I can think of is to relocate and set up your job in the area you want to move to first. Then start looking for boats, the area you talked about will have more to choose from and the logistics will be much simpler. Instead of having to change everything the boat is all you'll have to worry about. Finally if you've only come to the trimaran bug in the last 2 months realize there is nothing wrong with moving on at this stage in the game despite what forum jerks like myself may say. For most people this obsession is a life long condition for which there is no cure. Late onset trimaranitis could herald other life changes, be open to blondes and red convertibles.... they are easier to find. I'll try to ignore the quest for awhile.

 

[Ilan Voyager]

Dick Newick's Moxie and Rogue Wave are not good examples of state of the racing art from those days; they were heavy, had fixed rigs and were not at all extreme, more cruiser/racers - whereas the modern designs in comparison are flat out racing extremists. So Ilan Voyager's comparisons are definitely oranges as to pipped fruit.
A more realistic selection from the 1980s would be Marc Lombard's Lada Poch/Ker Cadelac 2 (which beat all the maxi multihulls of the time) - however the rig is fixed, non rotating and not a wing - so that makes it handicapped. But the platform for a 22 metre tri foiler is very light, 6.5 tonnes so put a modern rig on the boat and it would compare very favourably with the latest designs of today.
Another is Adrian Thompson's 18 metre Paragon - that too would give an excellent account of itself. These two are just a couple of examples but there would be more given more research. The Nigel Irens 60 Apricot of the times would also belong.

You're fairly right, simply I took fastly a 60 feet trimaran from the first edition, and the closest size of the 2014 edition to illustrate grossly the evolution in 36 years. As the sizes changed all time, that was a bit difficult to find consistent results.
The 1980ies were a big burst of creativity with the competition between French and British. It's sad that later, because of financing problems for the other nations, multi oceanic competition became a Franco-French affair.

The 1980-1990 boats were splendid, innovation was popping from everywhere and we were like excited children in a toys shop discovering the new boats.
Apricot was a beauty and opened the way to Fujicolor and all the descendants. I love deeply the work of Irens (who is gentleman).
Ker Cadelac 2 is one of the most beautiful boats ever made. I kept in my office during years a super poster of this boat.It descends of the Langevin design PIR2, and Marc Lombard has a stroke of genius. There is an anecdote, probably apocrypha, that the builder looking at the plans, thought that the amas were too short and added 1 meter more in the central section. This foiler had a successful career from 1985 to 1992 but needed extensive reparations in 1986 after very serious structural problems, the plague of most of the big multis of the time. These foilers lacked of downwind speed and thus the idea was abandoned. It may come back...
Paragon was a good tri, but not as good as the Iren tris, who are better all around. After Thomson went with ill fated projects and disappeared from the scene.
You did not mentioned the Jet Services catamarans saga. The Jet Services V 1987 was a monster Tornado of 22.85 m designed by Ollier, with bolted tube beams in carbon!. An anecdote; the second step of the Course de L'Europe 1987 started at Bremerhaven in the river. A big black cloud appears with a good wind, the crew sends the spinnaker and goes down the river like crazy at more than 30 knots forgetting all the other boats including the motor ones, a fantastic show. They arrived at Edinburgh with several hours of advance...This cata had a very long career with several records, and made in 1993 the first record of 79 days around the world with crew (note that 13 years later Joyon made solo the record at 57 days and you can measure all the progress made...and also shows the fact that with multis length pays a lot). Jet was a very brutal, a true shaker, and tiring boat with little protection. Now the NA take more care of the needs of the crew and also the boats are more "sweet" in their movements. Now dismantled in Poland.
We can say the same about the other big catamaran Formule Tag 1983 by Irens, later renamed Enza, and other names. Transformed to solar boat on 2014.
The lesson is that trimarans are "sweeter", passing better in the sea, tiring less the crew.
Pics 1-Ker Cadelac 2, 2-Jet Services V the super Tornado, 3- Enza based on Formula Tag, legthened.