New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Petros, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Maybe true, but I have nearly finished the drawings for my boat, and Alan sounds serious.

    Bring your doughnuts to the PT WBF in September and see (I cannot say "eat your words", we will do that for you)

    RW
     
  2. Jammer Six

    Jammer Six Previous Member

    How have you finished drawings for a class that has no specifications?
     
  3. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Chickens and eggs. Most classes actually develop after a couple of prototypes are built and are found to be successful.

    I've done this sort of thing before, in multihulls, 30 years ago. Someone has to start to build otherwise, as you say, it's just talk

    RW
     
  4. Jammer Six

    Jammer Six Previous Member

    You go.

    That follows everything I've observed. As soon as someone actually does something, as soon as events move beyond a free, easy post built out of ones and zeroes, the folks who want to build boats and race will join you, and then the talkers can just go talk to themselves.

    They'll probably switch to criticizing, but at least I'll be able to identify who to listen to then, and I'll know who to contact for rules on how to build a boat and join the class. :cool:
     
  5. P Flados
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    P Flados Senior Member

    Not really.

    A thin airfoil can have excellent performance, but only provided it has the correct shape. This means correct shape for the entire wing (front to back, top to bottom). The correct shape for high lift involves lots of camber and the correct shape for conditions that give you all the power you can handle may be low camber - low drag. Twist is needed for some conditions. A reversible camber thin wing using hinges, levers, control lines, hydraulics, etc. would get complicated quick and is unlikely to end well.

    For many conditions, I believe many modern sails can be shaped quite well by top sailors. I will admit that I lay no claim to this skill. The one thing a sail is usually not good at is operating a very low lift while keeping low drag.

    A thicker wing can have a "pretty good shape" with less complexity. A medium thickness wing with twist and slots is pretty much "state of the art". Something with a reasonable amount of control but accessible to home-builders would probably not be better than the best sails operated by the best sailors, but may be able to offer better performance than typical sails.

    I have spent more than a little time trying to figure out wing shapes, controls and reasonable build methods. I would love to see development of some "good solutions". These would potentially provide shape control that gives a high performance that is more "built in" (as compared to relying on a sail that requires a high skill for getting a really good shape). However, I am not real optimistic.

    The "best rig" for small performance boats will probably continue to involve single surface sail material for most of the surface area.

    To get back "on topic", lets say that this effort does take of with a "do what it takes" attitude for better sailing results than the small low end polytarp sails seen on a lot of the "quick build" competitions where other factors tend to outweigh sailing performance.

    If only new material is allowed, hardware stores are actually marginal as a source for good masts. If carbon tubes can be obtained within cost constraints (this would be either a used item or it would for be for boats that cost more than is being discussed in this thread), they provide a tremendous tool for a spar that is small diameter, strong and light. Aluminum is probably not hardware store but is generally available. Other choices involve either a lot of work and/or compromises.

    I am confident that something like a high aspect ratio square head polytarp sail on a stayed aluminum mast could be a cost effect rig that performs well.

    The other obvious choice for a new sail is buying pre-made sails for an existing pattern.

    For the boats discussed in this thread, I would not consider myself to be knowledgeable enough to make really good choices for building my own mast and making my own sails. If this concept were to start rolling, most would be best served by following the lead of the few that "did good" in previous events.
     
  6. Jammer Six

    Jammer Six Previous Member

    On topic?

    That was pretty funny.
     
  7. SukiSolo
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    SukiSolo Senior Member

    Well, the Merlins' had them too, I have a nice Beken photo of my father sailing one such, in 1948 off Cowes. Complete with 'go fast' through holes in the spinnaker...;) The problem is the section shape is no benefit to the flow, unless you really develop it as per the Bethwaite type. Fortunately I have seen a Bethwaite Cherub rig up close, and when it gets working. Also played around with some short lengths of full size sections with attached 'sail' to see what happens to the flow. I've sailed with some of these old ie Firefly rotating rigs and not had any particular problem, so do not quite get Alan's rig tension increase, seems some geometry was not arranged right.

    Current rotating masts that seem to work moderately well are on the Finn and OK at least and other una rigs, but these are not cheap as they are primarily carbon structures. Also of note is the rotation is handled by the boom fixed in a jaw so it may not be the optimum achievable.

    Simple tubes work fine for a simple reasonable rig, though personally I am not so keen on the 'joint' type as almost all such distort the bend. Pity it is so hard to cut and weld plus heat treat for the amateur builder....;)
    Ironically carbon allows amateurs to build masts again, but at a price premium.

    One well known designer in Nat 12 circles broke an alloy mast which took 7 or 8 replacements to get the same flexibility to work the same way. He also used to make his own sails and one useful trick he used was to buy some polyester sheet material (some commercial buiding covering I believe) and glued on the battens including full length, to the mainsail. It did not last too long but was cheap and fairly quick to make. One possibility for the home builder on a tight budget? It did work pretty well though.

    I fully understand the universality of the Laser globally and using such a well understood (if somewhat flawed) rig makes some good sense. It's not too hard to make even a shorter hull go faster than a Laser with the same rig....

    Not sure I'd count one router cutter (ie mast groove type) as that expensive btw....;) especially as you might need a (different) cutter for the c/board, dagger board case opening?.
     
  8. tdem
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    tdem Senior Member

    To give some perspective on cheap boats, this 50 dollar sailboat race makes for entertaining reading. http://www.pdracer.com/boat-shorty/50-dollar-sailboat-race/

    There's been some interesting stuff going on with cheap wingsails on the proa forum, which has moved from proafile.com to proaforum.com to confuse things.

    "Skip" has built a super light cartop proa with wingsail, called bionic broomstick, or BB. The whole thing has had several test sails which can be read about here:
    https://www.proaforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=39

    The build (using very low cost materials) can be seen here:
    http://proafile.com/multihull-boats/discussion-forum/viewthread/290/P30

    And a whole lot of discussion here:
    http://proafile.com/multihull-boats/discussion-forum/viewthread/365/

    (There's more information on those forums for someone with a lot of time on their hands)

    The interesting thing is it has a tail plane, and a control system which means it is self trimming. You basically push the accellerator forward, and the boat starts to move!
     
  9. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Yesterday I drew the Laser rig on my Zest, it won't work as well as I hoped, even after moving the mast step so maybe it isn't as universal a rig as I had hoped, you would need a hull made for it

    Apart from the cutters themselves I'd also have to buy a router...

    For those who don't know, the original Firefly rig of 1948 had an aluminium bottom section and a tapered wood top section. The "Reynolds" rig. The aluminium was not extruded but bent to shape

    I would have expected the full length battens to pop off after a gybe, obviously not

    I have seen Skip's proa. I don't think it counts as a racing boat and the boat did capsize overnight with the rig left up

    RW
     
  10. SukiSolo
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    SukiSolo Senior Member

    Ah well....I'll lend you a shaped hand plane (as in pre router shaping plane) if you really need it.....;)

    One of my Dad's 12s' from 1958 (Mk8 and Burton Winner) had an early extruded mast - a Proctor C, complete with diamonds. It was still going strong at the Millenium....so long life other than mishaps should be a granted. Actually, the first boat I ever went out in and later learnt to sail in.

    Getting the CLR right for anything other than a Laser but with that rig, takes a little adjustment to optimise so allow some 'movement' fore/aft on the board. At least on a prototype....;)

    Oddly enough it was the normal battens that 'popped off' first!. I think the top one was into a normal inner socket fitting at the luff. That mode of attachment for normal battens would work OK if you actually created more covering that glued over the batten. The original one I saw was literally glued one side of the batten only.
     
  11. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I have a friend who owns N12 number 6? built in 1936. He was still sailing it a couple of years ago. But he doesn't use the cotton sails any more, still has them though.

    RW
     
  12. SukiSolo
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    SukiSolo Senior Member

    I can remember seeing Nat 12 23 get a 5th in a Championship race circa 1972/3 which was pretty impressive. Light air smooth sea and a modern rig with new sails helped.

    I've sailed the Uffa King design amongst quite a few of these older beasts. Impressed that No 6 is still going, though Gypsy N1 is I believe in the Exeter museum. She used to go to the Champs too. Always odd getting in one of these old ribbed boats.....all those rovings and sometimes Kapok buoyancy!.

    Almost all the sails for the Mk 8 were Dacron but there was a suit of bright red Elvstroms' in cotton with white stitching. The cut was too full but they were still in perfect condition in the late 90s'.
     
  13. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I had clarification last night that Edensaw will again be running the Edensaw Boatbuilding Challenge at the Port Townsend WBF. But nothing will be formally announced until mid February. It is quite likely to be over subscribed this year so enter as soon as you can

    Richard Woods
     
  14. Sailor Alan
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    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    I think this is a bit harsh, and we for one do not need a ‘club’ or other accouterments in order to ‘race’.

    P Flados; Modern commercial transports wing thickness (more properly depth) has more to do with fuel volume and top of climb performance than strength. On swept wings anyway, we like aft loaded airfoils so the rear spar is deeper for more fuel volume and lower loads as the rear spar is heavily loaded. The front spar is mostly sized for fuel slosh loads in an accident.

    I ‘designed’ several completely different concept boats (hulls and rigs) to these rules, at least to the point where we could measure weight, surface area, wetted area, healed section, foil performance, CP, sail force, and possible performance for our review. None of these were satisfactory, but several different concepts came out of the discussion. Hence the multiplicity of design/builds from our group.

    I have the lines and construction drawings for my version almost completed too, though clearly these will be updated as necessary. I am gathering materials too, at least those that are a fixed part of my build concept. If we have to beach land my boat, as designed, especially in surf, it will probably be damaged. Its always interesting to troll through a supermarket or similar looking at kitchen utensils for items that can be modified for use on the dinghy.

    I have the rough lines for another of our teams boats too, though these are necessarily less complete due to lack of consultation.

    An explanation. Having spent decades designing (and building) technical things with virtually limitless resources available to us, we have developed new materials, and invented completely new classes of materials and structural concepts, the challenge of designing and subsequently building a complete dinghy that will eventually be tested against other similar dinghies, is too good to miss. We think the $600 an extremely good goal, and plan on beating this by as much margin as possible. Having to use an existing rig would be anathema to us, the rig and hull were originally designed as a holistic whole, so too should this boat. Using an existing sail(s) for convenience should be acceptable initially, but eventually this source will dry up, or become too expensive too.

    We realize that some of the items we are planning to explore are not exactly “Hardware Store” though that slightly depends on where your hardware store is. Irrigation pipes, a fruitful source of 6063 aluminum tubes, ARE available in hardware stores, but usually in states where irrigation is common. Composite flagpoles, aluminum flagpoles, composite awning supports, and other such are available in other states, especially Texas. Composite tool handles for various uses, including high voltage repair, are also a fruitful source of long poles, though not all ‘Hardware Stores’ carry these.

    MY ‘Hardware Store’ carries Western wear, Western boots, and equestrian accoutrements. Their fencing and stock control departments are a fruitful source of fittings, lines, and rigging generally.

    Whilst used Mylar is not exactly a ‘Hardware Store’ item, Tyvac, a close cousin is. Shrink wrap, for storm proofing, is also available.

    A 2.5-3” diameter galvanized, or powder coated sheet steel down pipe, filled with foam for column support might make a superb mast. Certainly i would not hesitate to form a sheet aluminum “D” or “Pear” section mast with a transverse web, probably bonded under vacuum and possibly riveted as well. This aluminum is available from “Hardware Stores’ especially California.

    Just because we admitted a ‘wing sail’ was on our ‘list’ does not mean we will necessary use one. We may build one for tests, but these tests may fail.

    Equally, this being a development class, increasing sail area may well be the leveling factor. Richard for instance may have lots of controls on his sail(s), and even know how to use them, but i submit that my slightly larger low tech sail area will be competitive, especially down wind. This is also true of the mast/sail interface. A slightly poorer mast shape, unacceptable in a restricted sail area class, is acceptable when a bit of added sail area could compensate.

    As Richard states, this ‘class’ will not come out of the box even ‘very good’ but merely acceptable. It is a development class. Spencer’s Mk1 Cherub was not that good a boat, but it blew past all the “Idle along’s” and other standard classes of the time. His Mk2 was better, but then the Mk7 arrived, and the race was on. One could build a Cherub over the winter and campaign it for a season, then it was obsolete, if not worn out. Then a new one, or a Javi, for next year.

    One Design classes, FD’s for instance, were glass, heavy, bought from Europe, very expensive, and rumors of people twisting the hull as it came from the mold to gain advantages under the ‘rules’ soured us plebs from these expensive classes.

    We do not know if any of ‘our’ designs will even finish on the same lap as Richard's, but we will compete. Again, we look forward to the single and double crew races, with and possibly without the ‘cooler’ ballast. This is another feature that separates this ‘class’ from most others, and should make for excellent racing. I can imagine a design optimized for say the single hand race, not doing well with twin crew and a ‘cooler’ (Eski, or Chilly bin for the antipodes) on board. Equally, a boat optimized for the twin crew, and cooler ballast, might be quite the handful with a single crew.
     

  15. Jammer Six

    Jammer Six Previous Member

    Take the bet.
     
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