paddlewheeler recuction drive

Discussion in 'Propulsion' started by xxdroom, Oct 30, 2014.

  1. parkland
    Joined: Jul 2012
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    parkland Senior Member

    There were some videos on youtube, where a guy built a very cool sternwheeler houseboat.
    He used the powertrain out of a bus.
    Maybe that is something you should consider.
    You can usually buy a decent running bus for 1-3000$, then you have a diesel engine instead of a v6 gasser. And a bunch of parts like fuel lines etc.
    I know, I just bought a 1993 bus with a dt360 engine, and allison auto, for 1100$.
    I am putting the dt360 in a 2008 ford superduty truck, which is a mjor project by the way.

    But back to the point, the guy mounted the engine in the boat, with the transmission, and used the rear diff to drive a chain to the wheel. The setup looks like it works awesome, and very simple without engineering a bunch of stuff.

    Here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-4iYQjl4RI


    And if thats too big on an engine, copy the idea but use a smaller vehicle like a diesel pickup truck. Or even a diesel car.

    Just make sure you oversize the powertrain to what the power output is. For EG if it's a 200 hp bus engine, you could probably load it about 100- 150 hp because they are more heavy duty.
    If you use a volkswagen car diesel engine and trans, really limit the load, to like 30 % of the rated output, because those are not as tough.
     
  2. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

  3. xxdroom
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    xxdroom Junior Member

    hey yea !

    thanks man........ now this is great stuff !

    the only question on the drive unit in the video is the smallish final drive sprocket........ dam that is a lot of load on that small sprocket ,,,,, it seems as if it should be 5 times bigger ?
     
  4. xxdroom
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    xxdroom Junior Member

    every time I get new info ....... the closer I get to acquiring the very best drive unit for my sidewheeler !
     
  5. xxdroom
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    xxdroom Junior Member

    the stern wheel bus motor & transmission video set-up,

    i wish i knew what the rpm was of the engine output shaft & the third member rear end is to the axel .
    and the axel rpm .
     
  6. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    Just going by my ears, it sounds like the engine is about 1200 RPM, and I'm sure he said the rear end is 6:1 ratio.
    The allison's 1st gear is 3.45.

    There is probably a lot of slip in the torque converter, but something I learned more about recently, is that unlike a slip clutch, they are rated in efficiency numbers, some are 50%, others 70% etc.

    I really wouldn't worry about that though, its a design that appears to work quite nifty, so go with it, and make slight changes later if needed.

    Do you know if you'd go bus size, or pickup size powertrain?

    A lot of times you can get tighter TQ converters, that wouldn't slip as much. Or even lockup TQ converters.
    The allison 545 is nice though, cause they are cheap, less than 1000$ for sure, usually 300-500$. So at least if you do fry it, it's not a big deal.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "3rd member", theres the engine, transmission, tiny driveshaft, and the rear end with one side cut off, and I imagine they must have welded the differential up. Just bolt you're drive gear onto the hub that would normally hold the wheel.
     
  7. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    If you do go the diesel bus route, you will likely choose between cummins 5.9, navistar dt360,dta360,t444e, dt466,dt466e.

    cummins 5.9, depends on year
    dt360=mechanical injected fuel system, 5.9L
    dta360=same thing but with intercooler ,5.9L
    t444e=7.3 diesel, similar to ford pickup trucks, almost identical.
    dt466=mechanical injected 7.6 diesel
    dt466e=electronic hydraulic injected 7.6 diesel

    There are some buses that have 8.2 detroits, or other engines, but 99% of what I've ever seen are the above.
    I would avoid an electronic engine, but thats me.

    The dt engines are wet sleeve, and very stout and reliable.
    Rebuild hits are cheap too.

    The cummins engines are really popular, so getting parts should be easy.

    If I did it though, I would go with a dta360.
    They are less wanted, because the dt466 has a few more ponies. Price is lower. They are super stout, more so than a 5.9 cummins.
    You can usually get a great deal on a bus with a dt360. Injectors are like 30$ off ebay.
    Everything on them seems to be cheaper than cummins.

    I bought my bus for 1100$, and it was a running driving bus. Dta360, and allison 545. Thats all you need.
    The dta360 engine is rated at 170 hp, but it's a really strong 170 hp, lots of TQ. Not like a 170 hp car motor.

    And think of all the parts you can steal off a bus, like the rear end, heaters, fuel lines, tank, etc the list goes on and on.
     
  8. xxdroom
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    xxdroom Junior Member

    the 3rd member is the differential .
    cool stuff!
     
  9. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    Also as far as driving the paddle without chain,

    You could maybe do it with a chopped down truck rear end, chop the 1 side off like the guy did in that video, then get the other side shortened right down. I expect that would cost a bit though, cause they would have to re-machine the splines on the axle shaft.

    You could also use 2 transmissions, 1 going into the next, to get gear reduction, and even be able to change it if needed. Guys do this on some rock crawling trucks, to get really low gears for going slow up rocks while offroading.

    Just remember though; if the engine is 500 ft/lbs of TQ output, and the transmission bolted onto it is 3.45 reduction, plus the TQ converter adds T also, the output could be 1500 ft/lbs or higher. So you would need a pretty beefy 2nd transmission.

    Some transmissions with low gears are around 20:1. If you put that behind an auto trans like the at545, I suspect you could run a 3:1 or 2:1 ratio drive to the paddle wheel, and adjust the manual trans until it works good.

    The auto trans would give you you're forward and reverse, and the manual trans would let you find what ratio works well, without buying and mounting a bunch of sprockets.
     
  10. Dave T
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    Dave T Senior Member

    The diameter of a 96 tooth no.80 sprocket gear would be 31.5". The pitch of number 80 chain is 1" so the pitch circumference would be 96". The pitch diameter would be 96 divided by pi 3.1416 the pitch diameter would be 30.6" so the OD would be slightly larger.
     
  11. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    Where do you even buy such giant sprockets?
     
  12. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    Another idea might be a tractor transmission; they are narrow and drive large wheels, so if you went engine>auto trans>tractor trans on the side of the wheel, maybe you could avoid chain altogether.
     
  13. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    ASME/ANSI B29.1-2011 Roller Chain Standard Sizes
    Size Pitch Maximum Roller Diameter Minimum Ultimate Tensile Strength Measuring Load
    25 0.250 in (6.35 mm) 0.130 in (3.30 mm) 780 lb (350 kg) 18 lb (8.2 kg)
    35 0.375 in (9.53 mm) 0.200 in (5.08 mm) 1,760 lb (800 kg) 18 lb (8.2 kg)
    41 0.500 in (12.70 mm) 0.306 in (7.77 mm) 1,500 lb (680 kg) 18 lb (8.2 kg)
    40 0.500 in (12.70 mm) 0.312 in (7.92 mm) 3,125 lb (1,417 kg) 31 lb (14 kg)
    50 0.625 in (15.88 mm) 0.400 in (10.16 mm) 4,880 lb (2,210 kg) 49 lb (22 kg)
    60 0.750 in (19.05 mm) 0.469 in (11.91 mm) 7,030 lb (3,190 kg) 70 lb (32 kg)
    80 1.000 in (25.40 mm) 0.625 in (15.88 mm) 12,500 lb (5,700 kg) 125 lb (57 kg)
    100 1.250 in (31.75 mm) 0.750 in (19.05 mm) 19,531 lb (8,859 kg) 195 lb (88 kg)
    120 1.500 in (38.10 mm) 0.875 in (22.23 mm) 28,125 lb (12,757 kg) 281 lb (127 kg)
    140 1.750 in (44.45 mm) 1.000 in (25.40 mm) 38,280 lb (17,360 kg) 383 lb (174 kg)
    160 2.000 in (50.80 mm) 1.125 in (28.58 mm) 50,000 lb (23,000 kg) 500 lb (230 kg)
    180 2.250 in (57.15 mm) 1.460 in (37.08 mm) 63,280 lb (28,700 kg) 633 lb (287 kg)
    200 2.500 in (63.50 mm) 1.562 in (39.67 mm) 78,175 lb (35,460 kg) 781 lb (354 kg)
    240 3.000 in (76.20 mm) 1.875 in (47.63 mm) 112,500 lb (51,000 kg) 1,000 lb (450 kg)
     
  14. parkland
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    parkland Senior Member

    Biggest sprockets I could find;

    #80 19.68" or 60 tooth
    #100 38.93" or 96 tooth - which was listed at 1900$ just for the sprocket.

    I was gonna say maybe run 2 sprockets and 2 chains, in case 1 fails, but at that price, I'd probably just chance it lol.
     

  15. Dave T
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    Dave T Senior Member

    For large sprockets it is usually much cheaper to have them made by someone with a computerized flame or laser cutter. for an 80 pitch it would be cut from 5/8" mild steel plate. Using a car, truck or bus transmission and differential would probably be somewhat cheaper and easier but you would still need to gear it down to drive the paddle wheels. You would need to use high gear in the transmission, high gear in most trans missions would be 1to1. For cruising to avoid overheating you would need to have the transmission in high gear and have low gear to get the thing moving. If the differential had a 6 to 1 ratio you would still need a 10 to 1 additional gear reduction to get down to a final ratio of 60 to 1
     
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