VW 1.9TDI Engine (AFN) to the boat...

Discussion in 'Diesel Engines' started by kieshaplius, Jan 6, 2014.

  1. kieshaplius
    Joined: Jan 2014
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    Location: Norway, Bergen

    kieshaplius New Member

    Hi All
    This is my first tread in this forum and I'm not English so sorry for my spelling mistakes.
    I have 19ft daycruiser home made, back from 80s. And on it at the moment Mercury 115hp engine, made in... maybe 1994. 4 cylinders 4 carbs 2 stroke. Lots of noise, and lots of money spent on fuel. And I was thinking. Since I have VW Passat standing at my place, with good engine (1.9 TDI 110hp year 2000 AFN code) why not to convert it in to marine engine for my boat. Had been looking around for some tips and tricks and stumbled here. You guys sound like you know what you are talking about, so I need advice.
    I was thinking to leave the engine cooling as it is. I mean, put the same radiator, with fan, to keep air going true it so cooling the coolant and getting some air flow true the engine compartment. Leave original exhaust manifold just do the dry heat insulation and cool exhaust after cat converter. For that use electric water pump (or engine driven) to put raw sea water for exhaust. I would custom make exhaust from stainless steel, as original will just rust away in months time... Also, change for a bigger turbo and custom make inter cooler cooled by air or seawater. As I use my boat in Norwegian sea, the water is cool all year long. Change generator for marine grade, and starter.
    I don't need a lot of speed. If the engine would keep the boat just on plain, that would be enough. Counting to run it at around 3.500-4000 rpm for periods of 30-50 min up to 1 hour. Drive system - sterndrive. As it is easier to fit, and I don't need extra gear box (witch would bring oil cooling an so on) Just dont know what ratio should I get it... As for engine oil cooling - it has oil cooling already. Would see if that is sufficient and if not - there is company in England that makes good oil coolers.
    As for costs. I already have engine and all the components that makes it work. I have whole running car, complete with ECU all sensors and so on. Forgot to mention Bosh made electronic diesel injector pump, witch I considering to convert in to manual. Then scrapping the ECU and most of electronics, that would complicate life in the sea. All of the conversion I would do it my self so that would cost me only my winter time... Witch is worthless... Generator and starter - local marine scrap yard. All bits and pieces would cost me around 5000 Norwegian krone's (1000 $) Now 1 liter of petrol in Norway cost 15kr. 1 Liter of marine diesel (witch is the same as for cars only has a green tint to it) price is 8kr. With my Mercury engine in 1 hour I burn 40 liters of petrol. In TDI I would expect to burn 15-20 liters. And that is why I would love to make my VW diesel in to marine diesel. And not just throw away perfectly good engine for scrap.
    What do you think? Any advice are more than welcome. I would post photos and videos of my job if there would be anyone interested. Thank you for reading.
     
  2. shakescreek
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    Location: northern B.C. Canada

    shakescreek Junior Member

    I see no reason it shouldn't work well for you. I put a vw 1.9tdi in my welded aluminum riverboat turning a jetdrive in the spring of 2007 and have put a little over 1300 hours on it over the last 7 seasons. It has a great power to weight ratio, is very economical to run, and has been completely trouble free. Recommend you check out the tdiclub.com forum, lots of knowledge there on the tdi engines. Although very little on marine use but still a lot of useful info there. I would suggest you use a tube type coolant to water heat exchanger for engine cooling, as it will be much more compact than the radiator, you won't need to worry about getting a lot of airflow through your engine compartment and you will likely need a water pump for the intercooler anyways. As far as the oil cooler goes if the stock one is not sufficient the pd150's/pd160's had a larger oil cooler that should bolt right on in place of your stock one. You are probably right on needing a bigger turbo as you will likely have to up the boost quite a bit from stock to keep the egt's at a safe level. I am running a garret GTB2056VL from an 2006 or newer volvo 2.4l 5 cylinder diesel car. Seems to be sized just about right to provide the required boost without surge issues. It is a vnt style turbo so will need the ecu. If you convert your injection pump to manual you would probably be best to go to a waste style turbo of about the same size. You may also need to go to bigger injectors, depended on how much power you want to pull out of it and for how long.
     
  3. CDK
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    CDK retired engineer

    There is a long thread in the DIY marinizing section about VW 1.9TD conversion. I strongly advise you to read that because it may keep you from making mistakes.

    The same company in the UK that makes oil coolers also makes an exhaust manifold with integrated header tank. Use that instead of the car radiator; you cannot create enough airflow with just a fan to simulate the circumstances in a car driving at 100 Km/h.

    Your TDi is suitable for the purpose, but it needs the electronic injection to inject the right amount in the right time. With a mechanical VE pump the power level drops sharply, you won't be able to reach planing speed.
     
  4. roedel
    Joined: May 2013
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    roedel Junior Member

    Why does the power level of the m-Tdi engines drop sharply to your opinion?
    Comparing Dyno charts between mechanical and electronic pumps id does not look that way.
     
  5. CDK
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    CDK retired engineer

    It is not just my opinion.
    The 1.9TD engine as used in T4 transporters delivered 60-70 HP. Hobbyists were able to increase the output to 90 HP, with reduced engine life and bad fuel economy as a penalty.
    Off the shelve TDi engines were rated at 140 HP.

    The perfect diesel must have the proper amount of fuel injected before tdc to compensate for the combustion delay. Even a common rail engine with 1500 bar fuel pressure cannot do that, but it comes close. Mechanical pumps need the rotation of the crankshaft during a considerable angle to inject fuel, hence the performance limit.
     
  6. roedel
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    roedel Junior Member

    Thanks for your quick reply, i cant follow your argumentation entirely.

    Any Diesel needs to inject before TDC.
    1.4mm before tdc (measure at the plunger) in my case.
    That is the setting many other m-Tdi enthusiast use.

    The VP37 Pump of the TDI engine untill the PD came out is nothing but a mechanical pump with and electric servo added controlling the throttle and the before mechanic/hydraulic advance control operated by an servo controlling timing plus volume.
    A mechanical pump can very well do the same.

    Many TDI engines around the year 2000 where mechanically fed, like Rovers, Cummins, and so on, why would a VW engine be so different and not function mechanically injected?
     
  7. CDK
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    CDK retired engineer

    That is doesn't function was not the message I tried to convey.
    Of course it functions. A carb on a gasoline engine also functions and I know a few people so scared of electronics they linger on to cars that belong to the past.

    The OP has a fully functional Passat and wants to marinize the engine for use in his Bayliner, so he needs all the power he can get from the little diesel. Throwing the electronics away and reverting to purely mechanical injection imho is a wrong decision.
     
  8. roedel
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    roedel Junior Member

    I agree.

    if the 9mm pump from an IDI 1.9 Liter (from your example) is used max output will be around 100HP.

    But if a 12mm plunger Cummins pump is used to match the VW TDI engine power levels beyond 200HP are possible, but of course not used as an commercial engine.

    Mechanical pumps can safely power the 1.9 Tdi in the range of 120 to 170 Hp.

    Here an interesting thread regarding that:

    http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=34788.0

    The reason electronic injection was introduced for Diesels was emission controls, not power. Emission control therefore is the biggest downside of a tuned mTdi engine.

    On the other hand the mTdi engine needs one wire to run and even that could be bypassed.

    You tell me, if you were about to cruise around the globe, what would you be more comfortable to deal with thinking about a stormy night in the middle of the Atlantic, engine bay flooded by 30%, generator stalled due to water in the intake.

    A) Would you be more comfortable restarting an engine with Salt water purged over an ECU and all its little plastic connectors and sensors, connectors that break cause they are brittle of age and your hands are clumsy due to the cold?

    Or B) would you be more comfortable with restarting an engine with salt water purged over cast iron and aluminum only, that as long as you don't have water in the oil and a working starter it will be back to live no matter what. That of course as long as it is started soon enough so corrosion will not take place in the cylinders.
     
  9. CDK
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    CDK retired engineer

    In the middle of the Atlantic in a TDI powered 19 ft day cruiser? I would only do that to commit suicide, so the choice between ECU or mechanical pump would not make any difference.
     
  10. roedel
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    roedel Junior Member

    No of course not, but i am sure it has been tried.
    I was more thinking about in the middle of the Atlantic with a 1.9Tdi powered saildrive, mounted in a 42foot Hallberg-Rassy ;-)
     
  11. d1970
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    d1970 Junior Member

    Now if you had twins on separate fuel tanks? I'd give it a shot.
     
  12. essenmein
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    essenmein Junior Member

    One of the main reasons I think automotive engines are de-rated for marine use is in cars, full power is only used intermittently, so they are not really intended for extended use at max power, on a boat power use is more or less continuous, so to get decent life out of it you have to de-rate.

    So its not that the mtdi's can't make more power, its that they are de rated to meet an expected service life.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
  13. roedel
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    roedel Junior Member

    Most marine Diesel engines originate from automotive applications. Main difference to their automotive cousin being reduced power for an extended operation at full throttle.
    All that has nothing to do if electronic or mechanical injection,its rather a reduced injection quantity.
     
  14. essenmein
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    essenmein Junior Member

    Yup, although it mostly applies to light passenger vehicle engines, they have lots of peak power, but not much life at that peak power. Once you start taking motors from transport trucks or heavy equipment then those are much more rugged and don't need to be de-rated as much or at all (ie limited in fuel delivery).
     

  15. CDK
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    CDK retired engineer

    Ford Europe once introduced their new Escort engine in an impressive manner. They had a team of race drivers run the car at top speed on a circular track to cover the Earth-Moon distance, fuel and oil change stops only.
    You don't need to de-rate a car engine for a marine application where it does no more than a few hundred engine hours per year.

    Drivers of small commercial vans like Ducatos, Transits and VW Transporters treat the throttle pedal like an on/off switch when traveling on German highways where there is no speed limit.
     
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