Historical multihulls

#583

OC, most if not all of your observations are incorrect.

Bagatelle is not a Spindrift and therefore does not have the headsail characteristics of a Spindrift.

For the record (the now) old Crowther designs still punch above their weight going to windward in all seas in all weathers - Lock got the balance right.

 

It was actually me that gave OC the bum steer on the Spindrift design. I wasn't sure and as I noted oldsailor would know more about the boat. I agree that Lock had a great skill with designing fast and comfortable boats. It was interesting to compare the hull shapes of modern and older catamaran designs at a night at Allcraft Marine and strange to think that performance has actually decreased in favour of more load carrying ability.

 

Disagree. For the record:

I built the hulls of a Spindrift 45 to locks plans [ built with air ex foam sandwich construction Poly resins not epiglass two pot mix.] helped professionally with the decks cabin and boxed wood main cross beams and it had the same characteristics as in the picture above. Its a bit hard to tell the difference between 42ft and 45ft from a photo. Same cabin extension onto the hull decks,
Same rocker hull shape that caused excessive hobble horsing to wind ward. A prominent multihull designer and builder raced with lock during construction on locks personal Cat. He stated they raced with lock with the bows completely submerged to the alli bow cross beam at 25 knots under spinnaker - could not get any more speed because the bridge deck was acting as a brake as the bows lacked buoyancy. Lock was known for pushing his boat to the maximum. To windward it hobby horsed. On his return the hulls had already been altered with additions with bows bulbs. He [ the NZ'er ] confirmed what had been done was correct after sailing with lock and discussing the issue with him stating it would give extra bow buoyancy, reduce hobble horsing and allow the boat to achieve greater speeds under spinnaker and balance the boat to far better degree.

The design specs at that time and plans where for foam sandwich construction. So if the 45 was before the 42 then the 42 was not one of the first of Locks big foam sandwich builds.

Corley by the way it was not a bum steer.


CHEERS.

OC

 

Many of the earlier Spindrifts suffered from builders bog therefore they were built overweight. I saw one 37' that went like the wind-ply and chined hulls.

This was a problem, by adding creature comforts and going for looks builders added weight with susequent loss of performance.

At that time the Spindrift 45, which was only designed as a cruising boat, outperformed nearly all racing keelboats to windward in heavy weather. Bagatelle was a game changer.

 

OC ----I'm not really sure you know what you are talking about.
Since the Spindrift preceded Bagatelle, Bagatelle evolved from the Spindrift 45. But it was not the same.
As you correctly pointed out, the Spindrift was designed as a cruising Cat.
Bagatelle was designed as an all out ocean racer for Lindsay Cuming.
I cruised with John Hitch in his Spindrift 45 to Lord Howe Island in a southerly buster and it certainly did not "hobby Horse".

Oh! and I did not say Bagatelle was the first of the foam sandwich hulls, ---I said ONE OF the first.
Canadian Multihull Services made no less than three large Buccaneers and three Typhoons in foam sandwich prior to Bagatelle.

 

-I'm not really sure you know what you are talking about.

"oddsailor"

I have stated since it is not the the same but similiar above the rogerf post. Not completly different. The cabin in the hulls coach roofs extend above the hull decks and are sloping squarish shapes with ports / windows - very similiar or same. The Spindrift 37 he referred to was that the red Kiwi 37 ft Cat that had the 12ft extra tappered mast added to the original mast that flipped mid Tasman on Its return trip to NZ?

I also did not say Bagatelle was the first of the foamsandwich.

I also did not as you quote I correctly pointed out, the Spindrift was designed as a cruising Cat. That was another poster.

Were'nt the large Buccaneers 40 ft in lenght.

Is sailing from Australia to Lord Howe Is sailing to windward or on a reach. Hobby horsing normally does not refer to reaching but hard on the wind unless in confused seas / cross wave seas. The spindrift as can be observed has the poylnesian curved hulls. Reduced bouancy in the stern allows the bows to rise which most cats designs do not now follow and the curved and cut aft angle bows allow the bows to depress down into the wave as the wave section moves to the stern. The bulbs solved this problem.

The poster that stated that Bagatelle was the first crowther design with bulbs which is also incorrect as the spindrift with crowthers input and ammendment was one on the first to have bulbs as the spindrift I referred to preceded the Bagatelle, design.

How ae the two crowther sons doing now as designers.

OC

 

"The Spindrift 37 he referred to was that the red Kiwi 37 ft Cat that had the 12ft extra tappered mast added to the original mast that flipped mid Tasman on Its return trip to NZ?"

No.

This is now becoming ridiculous.

 

And Red Cats Do Flip

What do you mean becoming ridiculous. It was a Crowther Cat 37 ft and it did happen. Don't know how many where on board but it sailed to Aussie short handed. I knew and met the guy and spoke with him. His wife made the comment re the mast in disapproval re the cost. And red cats do flip. Yes.


OC

 

In 1990 I took this photo of David Knaggs from our Great Barrier Express (GBE-II, coremat construction - after this one, Richard Pilkington's number 2, they were foam sandwich) on Auckland Harbour. We were going upwind at a smart pace in 10 knots of wind. David Knaggs actually sailed a full circle around us - on foils - in his foiled tri.

 

More photos of Bagatelle.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.10151685083409503&type=1

 

Dave Knaggs' foiler plan; this is a later foil version of your shot, foilernz, where the foils were ladder-like and fixed angle of attack; these T foils were adjusted by the inclined wand. Dave was ahead of his time - but this special design rotted away in his back garden, eventually he burnt it.

 

not really true...

I will admit my bias early as im alan Thomas's (r.i.p) son but to call triton/promocean a dog is incorrect and showing some basic lack of understanding of the boat. it was an amazingly advanced Adrian design and I agree took a lot of extra work to get its concept of trimaran hydrofoil to get working.
I sailed it during the F40 season and its main problem was its weight compared to the f40 catamrans it was racing in the series , this came about as it fell between two stools in many ways.
my dad required it to be built to also complete the OSTAR which meant extra weight n strength, it could go out and perfrom in conditions that kept the other ultra light f40's in harbour so in middle to high strength winds it really performed but I agree it was a 'dog' in light winds. in the 86 ostar though it was performing very well and on course for top group winner but again I felt it was too cutting edge/untested as the forces on the hydrofoil eventually bust the outrigger. also I must also confess that maybe my dad was a bit too old school in his thinking/sailing ? it used to drive me mad that he wouldn't battle to cross the line first plus he was not enough of an adrenalin junkie to push it to its limits as I remember on a dark n stormy night from brest to Plymouth I had promocean at 28 -38 knots , all 3 hulls flying on the one hydrofoil, the noises and stress were huge but jesus it was flying...but he hated it tbh..its a shame really he was more made for the half crown club era, not the craziness of roger n gallet, elf aquaitaine days..fun tho they were. tony bullimore loved promocean but would agree on the boat sentiments I feel

 

cheers bud and I agree

 

I felt that tritons main problem was its undersized outriggers made it too dependent on its foils, plus pitching and changes to foil angle because of this made it very helmsman intensive. to get it flying you couldn't just stick to your compass / route as it would pitch or crash of its hydro plane, it was faster to if need be bear away as a swell approached then pull back after the peak..in effect steer an oscilating route! s

 

Brilliant vid, good to see dad on triton! Royale was amazing boat, went round iow on it, amazing