Americas Cup: whats next?

I enjoy watching high-tech all out.. I see what CT249 is getting at though. A race is a set of artificial limits. Change the limits and someone will always be happier and someone less happy. Unfortunate there isn't enough global money to have two series.

 

i say let the monos, cats, foilers and whatever / whoever else all go at it in a free for all...
This way noone will have their 'feelings hurt'... may the fastest win...

but you do realize that it wouldnt be long before they are all sailing something like a foiling cat or tri, because they are the fastest...

The americas cup has positioned itself as the formula 1 of sailboat racing... so naturally multihulls are being used because they are fastest round the bouys, just like superlight weight, open wheelers with wings are fastest round car track... its the pinnacle of the sport.

Saying the americas cup should be run with anything but the fastest sailboats on the planet, is like asking for formula 1 to only allow 4 door sedans in the race.

IMHO, it should be open slather, who cares if money wins, next year they can copy each other and try to find an edge a different way... it will drive the development faster than anything else, until the boats are going so fast they will then have to invent a few rules to keep the speeds within the realms of safety - like formula 1...

Thats what i hope happens next in the AC... no rules at all... save anything upto 70ft long, no stored energy, go for ya lives...

 

Right on bell, the same old stuff from Oldsailor. Someone puts up a post with a different point of view, and you reply with insults and the sort of slogans normally seen on motivational posters in failed $2 shops. If you are old then behave like a mature adult, discuss the facts and stop the insults.

I have done about 7 times more multi sailing over the past decade than leadmine racing, so you have no ground to assume that I am prejudiced against multis in favour of leadmines. Like some others, my only prejudice is against those who are arrogant enough to think that the sort of boat they favour is the "superior craft" for others.

The AC may be a matter of technological advancement but technological advancement in sport is almost always restricted, so why can't the AC continue to restrict technology as it has since the first challenge?

Unrestricted technological advancement is not what interests most sailors, or most sportspeople. According to you F1 cars, Olympic javelins, foiler Moths, C Class cats, Tiger Woods' golfclubs, Cadel Evans' bicycles and Michael Phelps swimsuits should all be thrown on the scrapheap because none of them are examples of unbridled technological advancement. In fact all of them - like almost all sports gear - show that technological advancements in sport are almost always highly restricted, often to around 70% or less of the maximum performance available without restrictions.

Speed and performance in sport are comparative, not absolute, or else why would you get excited with an AC72 that is slower than lots of fishing boats. Since speed is not an absolute, sports introduce restrictions to improve competition in various ways. The old AC was no different.

F1 cars are so heavily restricted that a lot of technology that is used in a Corolla is not allowed in F1. Formula Libre has almost no restrictions and it'a almost dead. Can Am had few restrictions and it IS dead. Olympic javelins and Tiger Woods' golf clubs are all heavily restricted in technology and are no higher (often lower) than the gear used decades ago. Swimsuits are restricted because almost everyone thought the supersuits were stupid - that was technological advancement that people rejected so much that new record categories were created. Same with bicycles, motorbikes, etc. According to your reasoning, chucking motorbikes out of motorbike races and replacing them with faster cars would be "technological advancement".

The AC has ALWAYS been about RESTRICTED technological advancement. That is why Herreshoff fought for rules to ban scow types. That is why the Js and 12s and IACCs were brought in, with their scantling requirements and restrictions.

I see that you have given no reference to your claim that Herreshoff would have applauded the current AC. Care to back up your claim with facts?

By the way, Herreshoff said that cabins should never be put on cats and that they would never replace monos. If you are going to adopt his point of view then you would have to stop sailing cabin cats. If you are going to ignore some of his views then you cannot expect others to listen to all of his beliefs.

The boring old "luddite" chant completely fails to account for the fact that sailing uses restricted technology. If using technology to go fast was the aim then only a fool would use sails. The current AC rules restrict technological advancement, it's just a matter of degree.

By the way, the revolution was in the '60s, when Quickcats were the most popular boat in the VYC census. It was in the '70s, when races like my dad's memorial event attracted 300 cats, or when the B-G got over twice as many multis as it does now. Sadly since then the multis have declined badly in many ways.

I wonder how much of that is due to the noisy minority who insist that multis are superior and then slag off those who prefer other types? Certainly that's one reason I'm not sailing multis at the moment; dealing with such arrogant types is painful.

 

Three points;

1 - Until this last challenge, the AC was NOT all about the fastest or most advanced sailboats. America herself was beaten by Maria before she left for the UK to start the whole thing. Many of the big cutters, schooners and Js were NOT the fastest sailboats. The 12s and the IACCs were never the fastest sailboats.

So for over 150 years the AC has not been about the fastest sailboats. Simple fact.

2 - Formula 1 cars are NOT the fastest possible cars. They are extremely restricted; tiny engines, no supercharger, no turbo, RPM limits, fuel limits, wing limits, clearance limits, no fans, no ground effect, no closed cockpit, no traction control, no ABS, valve restrictions, cylinder restrictions......

The truth is that the 4 wheel saloon in the showroom often has technology that is BANNED in F1. So F1 is actually proof that people can get excited by heavily restricted technology, even when it creates comparatively slow equipment (the Monza of 1976 is still the second fastest F1 race ever - there's no way a 1976 12 Metre event was faster than an IACC event!)

The F1 car is a long way short of the fastest car that can be built, so it is not evidence that the AC should be about the fastest boat that can be built. By the way, last time I checked 2 door Le Mans "saloons" were actually faster than F1 cars down long straights!

3- F1 has taken care to maintain its traditions. Modern F1 did not take over the motorbike world titles despite the fact that cars are faster than motorbikes. F1 cars did not take over the Indy, Bathurst or Le Mans races despite the fact that they are faster.

Modern F1 made events rather than just taking them over from other motorsport categories on the grounds that they were faster or more advanced. So why should multis take over the AC?

Why not grow a new event rather than just take one away from the most popular form of sailing craft?

 

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I disagree emphatically if you're referring to multihull performance. With the advent of lifting foils multihulls perform better than they ever have in history. The current America's Cup Challenger is the fastest America's Cup challenger in history and one of the fastest multihulls in history. The round the world record for any boat is held by a foil assisted multihull and the fastest sailboat on the planet is a foiling multihull.
The Revolution is ongoing and has entered one of its most significant phases with the introduction of lifting hydrofoils to the AC for the first time in history. And lifting foils are even being used on keelboats for the first time in history. Yes, it is a Revolution.
It is a fantastic improvement in the Americas Cup to have the fastest sailboats in the world racing for it-and it should be maintained as a prerequisite for the future!

 

No, I referred to multihull popularity, which seems to have seriously declined over the long term in many areas.

 

foils ie wings!

Is this a car?

Doug a boat uses its hull like a car uses its wheels, to get around and not for take-off.

A foiling thingy is NOT a boat, multi or mono! but a FLYING-BOAT, or you guys come-up with a name you like, but stop trying to pass them of as the genuine article! Please accept the difference, you are not so dumb.

Hull/fuselage with wings/foils for lift

What was wrong with hobie trifoiler? Why does it not count, attitude control wands? banned like F1 tech cause they drove themselves? don't see you making reference to them, they were clocked at 40knots! Too boring cause they could turn on a dime and could not flip? They would embarrass an AC72 in a match race.

 

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I've referred to altitude control systems in many,many posts including Greg Kettermans "feelers", Bradfields wands(and their use on monohulls and multihulls). Use of lifting foils does not make a boat less of a boat or change its characteristics as a multihull or monohull-there are monofoilers and multifoilers but they are all multihulls or monohulls first. They have to function as a boat when its too windy or not windy enough-some are better at it than others.
One of the technically intriguing and exciting things about the new America's Cup boats is that they are not using Kettermans "feelers" or Bradfields wands or any variation thereof. How are they able to fly? I think that to some extent they are being flown manually-its been done before. And the answer will be one of the great contributions this Americas Cup will make to the rest of us.
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As to the new boats being "embarrased" by any other boat- not likely since on its very first sail on foils the Kiwi America's Cup boat did very close to 40 knots which is very close to Kettermans top speed with Long Shot. And they sailed almost twice the 20 knot windspeed! Thats on a boat designed to sail around a course! Hydroptere has done over 60 knots peak speed without any altitude control system using surface piercing foils in her "record breaking mode"-and still holds the record as the fastest sailboat on the planet!
Banque Populaire, using "foil assist", set the record for the fastest round the world in history. So boats using foils are becoming the new "normal" in race boats whether monohull, multihull, full flying or "foil assist". It is symptomatic of the tremendous technical progress in sailboat design and construction and will produce faster, more seaworthy, boats for the average person as time goes by.
The Revolution in the America's Cup is now and is part of a tremendous ongoing revolution in materials, technology, and sailing that has affected every raceboat to some degree and whose effects will only grow more pervasive over time.
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Russell Longs Trifoiler "Longshot" did 43 knots in a record try in 1992. The Kiwis did close to 40 knots in a 20 knot wind on one of their first sails! More to come, I assure you....
A Class Russell Long (USA) 43.55 knots July 1992 Tarifa, Spain

 

If you want a common-man's race, restrict athleticism too. No sailors who are better fit than the average weekend sailor

 

I'm just quoting this bit because the rest is just a well worded rehash of what you have said many times, I think everyone gets the gist of your point of view.

Nothing is being taken away (isnt the very attitude you are putting forward itself quite arrogant? ie it should be raced in monohulls?) and monohull match racing in many different classes of monohulls will continue. Many of the usual suspects in Americas Cup Racing would most likely choose to place the race format back into monohulls including Grant Dalton. He does have quite a history with multis though having steered and project managed the maxi cat Club Med to victory in Bruno Peyron's "The Race". I've not seen him smile like he is in this photo on many of his monos though.

 

CT, the period when multihulls were very popular (1960's and early '70's) was when they were a new sensation, a new look and a break from the (mostly) boring monohull dinghies of the time - plus there were numbers of amateur and established designers producing cats and tris that could be built by the average bloke. You well know the Australian and Kiwi lists. As Jim Young said, "Monohull performance increases was like breaking sticks whereas the multihull was like splitting logs."
And why was this popularity so great? Because the new sensation boats were fast. They were fast. Plus anyone could build one. They were fast, simple and they were not expensive. Remember when the basic (but right) 12 foot Kitty trounced the hot and expensive Q Class fleet in Auckland. Immediately banned from future racing by the angry committee. Which was the correct result because the Q12's were completely outclassed.
Well right now we may be having a new sensation again, albeit not for the average punter ... but who know? - there may be trickle down from the flying AC72 hydrofoilers. And I don't mean some neocon bankster version of urinating on the masses. Got to admit, interesting times.

 

Have a look at "man with a golden gun"

If you "foil assist" a car, it is a flying-car, what's the big deal, just call it what it is!

 

Sorry Corley, I can't see why the attitude that the AC should be raced in monos is arrogant. It is a recognition of the fact that monos are the type that made the Cup what it is today. It is a recognition of the fact that events for sporting disciplines are almost always reserved just for that discipline, not taken away from a healthy discipline and given to another type. That's something that every sporting discipline seems to agree on, bar one.

IMHO the AC should be raced in monos because that discipline of sailing created the event. Almost all of its history, prestige and allure come from the 150 years of monohull sailing, so why should another discipline take over?

Let's remember, when the cats were wrongly dropped from the Games there was an outcry because a whole discipline had been dumped from the discipline's top line event. Bundy, Forbes and the rest of the world's top small cat sailors didn't just say "Oh well, we've had our turn in the premier event" as some propose leadmine sailors should do with respect to the AC. The cat sailors didn't just say "well, it's all sailing so we will just learn how to sail 49ers". They specifically referred to sailing as a sport that had separate disciplines and that sailing small multis was separate from sailing small mono dinghies.

So the concept of multi sailing being a separate discipline is accepted by multi sailors. In that case it does seem wrong to me that something that has been the premier event for the large mono discipline for 150+ years has now been taken over by something that multi sailors themselves see as another discipline. As far as I can see from looking at other sports, it is normally considered inconceivable for the major trophy for one discipline to be taken away and given to another in these circumstances.

Can you give me examples of a similar move in other sports? This is not an event that was fading out and therefore was passed to another discipline to keep it alive - the contender numbers were still strong and the current version is seeing the smallest number of contenders for eons.

It is not arrogant to point out how unusual and (IMHO) wrong this situation is. Were the C Class sailors "arrogant" when they protested about the LACC being taken from the C Class? Would the motorbike racers be "arrogant" if they tried to stop the Moto GP events being given to F1 cars because the cars and faster and drive flatter? Were the small cat sailors "arrogant" when they protested about their spot in the Games being given to another sailing discipline? Were the track riders "arrogant" when they lost Olympic events to other areas of cycling? No, they just reacted as people from any sporting discipline do - they said "this is an existing event that has been here for us for many years and we want to preserve it". Why can't leadmine sailors do the same thing?

When small cats arrived, they did not take over mono events. When windsurfers arrived, they did not take over cat or dinghy events. When kitesurfers arrived, they did not take over windsurfer events. When motorcycling arrived, it did not take over the Tour de France. When car racing arrived, it did not take over the major horse racing events. There is a recurring pattern in sports in which newer disciplines stand up and make their own events and grow the sport, rather than taking events away from the discipline that created them. Why should cat sailing be different?

And about "nothing is being taken away" - where is the current major international pro match racing series in 65+ foot monos, which is the large niche the AC has served for 150years. There isn't any such thing any more, because it HAS been taken away.

And what would I be being arrogant about? Over the last couple of years I've spent much more time racing offshore multis than leadmines so I'm not exactly arrogant about the superiority of either type. I just believe that people should respect each type and not take over events created by any type for any type.

 

(Quote):-
Why can mono events not do what every other sport I know does, and keep events created for and by a discipline just for that discipline? (Quote).

Because AC Monos have become boring. Like watching grass grow.
The only AC race that sticks in my mind was the one where the Carbon Fibre boat broke in half and sank. That was at least a bit exciting.

 

I agree with a lot of that, but have two comments.

One, I don't think it matters whether the cats were fast. People go sailing for fun and to me it matters if sailing is fun no matter how you do it. I can do high 30s all day on a slalom board but that is not "better" than sailing a Logan classic at 6 knots IMHO (although it looks like I will be sailing a 12 Foot Skiff and the 2nd or third fastest small mono singlehander a bit this year).

Secondly, would foiling be "trickling down" from the AC? Foiling started in small boats, just like multihulling and planing and vangs and bendy masts and movable ballast and canting and lightweight hulls and the best designers and the best builders and popular sailing and genoas and assymetrics and bow poles and squaretops and..... you get the drift.

I know the AC guys develop stuff, but the vast sums invested in the AC seem to do a fairly poor job of creating innovations. Almost all of the innovations come from the Farrs and Manders and Bucklands and Foxes in small boats, then gets adopted 10-15 years later by the AC. So I dunno, it seems even more divorced from "real world" sailing now AND it's still not the place I'd look at for real innovation.

To each his own, of course.