Buccaneer 24 Trimaran

But as he has toed in daggers in the ama's the board toe-in relative to the waka will change with the ama toe change, so it's all interconnected which has to be taken into account unless the ama boards are up and only the centerboard is used when comparing ama toe in~out.

Thanks for the Bali double outriggers toe in~out info, are there also some that have the ama's parallel to the waka . . ? ?

Cheers,
Angel

 

Well, yes and no, Angel, if the foils are doing their job, there is very little (just the skimming bottom) of the float immersed, what counts is the angle of attack of the foil because the foil is the dominant factor in providing lift and power, not the toed in (or out? just joking) floats. What I mean about toe in is a measurement relative (always) to the main hull, that is the base and the constant, not the float; you could have both foil and float toed in but it is the foil that counts. However there maybe a fractional gain in having both angled in. Am I confusing this even more?
The thing about the jacundas is that they have no foil and no one knows whether toed in or out is better on their trimaran configuration. Probably heated arguments occur between the differing village factions.

 

Gooday - Gary - you're not makeing it more confussing - it is a very delicate type subject - & IMHO can't be generalised.

Are there in fact 3 subjects here - with both amas & foils - that's 6 subjects in all.

Is there - 1/ canted hulls/floats/amas ??? then
2/ toe-in or toe-out ??? then
3/ forward or back - in vertical profile ???

& is this not to do with both amas & foils

or am I to sick to get the plot here.

Ange - how many multihulls have you sailed on ??? so we can properly evaluate your knowledge & experience ??? in dealing with this ever-so complicated & heady subject - please ! ! ! ciao, james

 

Gooday 'bruceb' - great to read your 'in-puts' - very informative for sure ! !

You're the guy that's going to help us all - of that I'm sure. You're out there - doing it - that's 26 out-of 10 ! !

Keep changing things around - 1 at a time - & let us know - what the results are. Please - I know it's a bother but - you're breaking new ground here ! !

Like - what -"just happened" as that's the way - new ground IS discouvered - Gary, Doug, Steve & others in here can sure prove that is so.

Keep us posted - maybe - make the toe-in on 1 side even more pronounced & the toe-out on the other more extreme as well - both with & with out the the foils down & let us know how it come out.

I'd give - 'bucket's of bucks' to be there doing it with you. Wishing your great success, ciao, james

 

Interesting observations about the Bali outrigger tow in and out. They both may help in different way but a good GPS woud let you know which is more effective. Your boat makes x leeway, a towed out ama would add less drag and the main hull would handle most of the leeway resistance. A towed in outrigger would handle more of the leeway allowing less drag/ sideslip of the main hull. Both help but you need to measure to see how much. I think the towout would also add less heeling motion and the tow in would add more. Once that is settled you can add the foil into the mix because it is going to have an optimum angle of attack and will need to be adjusted for the tow in or out to maintain the angle. Of course tow in should track better....with tow out if the main hull loses grip you're going to dart to leeward.

 

Gooday Canuck - So you've finally opted to 'come-out' in the open & declare your - 'real knowledge base' - bout time - been waiting for almost ever - Thanks. Nice to see you - - out in the open - - & not hiding behind that lovely 'big-brown' momma - always better to be behind them than in front. Great pic though - she sure is intent on going in the direction of the camera - at that point - I'd have been 50' up any tree available - & not doubt - doing my business - on her head - out of total fear. For something so big & looking so fat - 'dem-bars' - dey can sure run, way to fast for me ! ! !

Y'all need to keep explaining more about - 'toe-in' vs 'toe-out' so I can learn - - & then I might get it into perspective with all the other factors - - that's not happening yet - but I'm reading everything said. Thanks, ciao, james

 

What? I'm lost

 

Gooday hey - '28' - you can't be lost - you're right near 'paradise' just next to me - I'm just a bit north of you. Kuranda way.

Re comments to 'han' - he's a Canuck - I'm an ex-pat Canuck - came from the same area - so if you go into 'Cooking - aboard or outdoors' - page 85 - # 1267 - - You'll be in the picture & it'll all make cents - ha ha - well for me & maybe 'han' who I was trying to - take the 'piss-outa' in OZ speak. Caio, james

 

Ah ok got it now, different thread

 

I also think the subject of foils is not only to be comprehended by deductive reasoning alone, its not a static issue.
Its delicate fiddling with always variating conditions.
But I do like the tales about foils so I can try to feel/envision and get better understanding what's going on with that phenomenon and everything that is related; which is a lot IMHO.
Angel, thanks for bringing up 'les derives' I certainly see the relation, and you certainly got some nerve, as being a "Belg", lecturing about Dutch leeboards!
It could do with an update IMO with tow-tank studies from Piet van Oossanen http://www.oossanen.nl/dutch-leeboard-yachts/ and Andre Hoek http://www.hoekdesign.com/index_full.htm Look for Dutch leeboard yachts.
Although I wouldn't call myself an expert and can recall heated spirited arguments , I have experienced sailing hopelessly many boats with, often hopeless only very seldom satisfactorily , leeboards in all kinds of conditions adjusting the leeboards to extension and can only say you can never say this is it, this is perfect, like life I guess you go from experience to experience, think them over & try better or different.
Oh and Bruce, to come back to your original question, I think recall reading somewhere or saw an interview with a multihull NA saying, even think it was about an Orma 60, 1 or 2 degrees toe in. I'll try to find out where.

2 cents

 

I'm a Yank James, though not pulling your chain and am not sure what forum cooking afloat and ashore is in. While I do hike in bear county I haven't posted any pictures. Canada is great, I sail there as often as I can. Over the years it has come to feel like part of home for sure.
Back to toe in my vote would be for keeping the hulls on centerline and having the foil adjustable till the are dialed in.
Nerve is something Angel doesn't lack......my manners are terrible though, I may have gone feral in the boat yard....

 

Oooops - to far north ???

Good day to you Sir - Mr Cavalier mk2 - (still don't know how to use 'smiles' on the right) to you - I offer my sincere & humble apologies for my - ever so loose mouth. Again offered in & with all honesty however with a bit of good humour but none the less respect. My hat's-off to you ! ! !

I've been 'ex-pat' for so long now & have got used to the OZ way of 'grouping' us (North Americans) all together - mostly so they can get a 'bite' out of you - that I sometimes fall into the same area of error. (again I don't know how to activete the 'smilies' th the right).

I do look forward your continued input - cause this a great learning-curve subject. Thanks, ciao, james

 

It's okay James, I'm not your typical American so your not far wrong. I don't make or smuggle drugs, participate in organized crime or tithe to the gangs, Every one has guns but you know those things can hurt people and bullets cost money! In the land of the free and home of the brave you have to be brave to stay free..I had to start running gubs just to have something to do when everyone else is busy. Of course the downside is not having a extra 100 Gs around in ill gotten gains when girls like Angel suggest new investment opportunities. I also champion green boating and renewable recourses which is very un yachty. American Ken Kesey coined the term "on the bus" when chronicling the acid awareness days but I suggest instead no forced busing.......very un American and nothing to do with toe in or out. So as a citizen of the mutiverse I say "I'd rather be sailing".

 

Boat hulls, (and multihull hulls are no exception) have least drag when travelling through the water in the same direction as the line of their keels.
As a result any angle of leeway causes induced drag. This is why modern boats (yes even monohulls) are now designed to have the hull(s) making the least resistance to sideway movement---leaving the job of leeway resistance, (notice I don't say "prevention"), to the keel, dagger or centre board which has been
properly designed for the job. Since the vertical foil is at it's best LD ratio at an angle of attack of 4 - 5 degrees, it doesn't hurt much to have the hull at the same angle if it presents little resistance. A sharp edged Ama on the other hand will operate at a low level of efficiency if it is used in an effort to reduce leeway. Thus the keels of the floats (Amas) should have no toe in or toe out, but be parallel to the keel of the main hull, (Vaka)
An Ama sprouting a lifting foil is altogether a different matter, which Doug may want to refer to.

 

The US and AUS dollars are at par right now.
This means that this last set of B24 plans are still $150.00 in both US and AUS
dollars.
This package contains more that just the plan sheets. Extras are sheets showing the alternative spade rudder, a simple mainsheet/outhaul system which eliminates the need for an expensive mainsheet track, a booklet on the wood/epoxy building method which extends the life of your boat by a factor of five, a booklet showing how a B24 was built in six weeks and sailing in nine, plus backup help and advice from one who has been involved in the building and sailing of no less than six Buccaneers.
PM me if interested.