CSC 30 Catamaran- the coastal passage

ouch, thats one error I can't afford to make. I'd just assume keep collecting materials till I can build something safe and survivable.

 

I don't want to get into another war over what is defined as "marine grade" plywood. However if you can accept that plywood with some voids in the inner plies can still make a serviceable boat, then CDX for bulkheads is definitely false economy. ABX is available for only a few dollars more per sheet and is far superior (though it still has voids in the inner layers). That said, at least for the box crossbeams voidless marine ply is probably a good idea.

What I really like about the boat is the fast build time. It is essentially a "stitch and glue" design, not requiring a building jig. It goes together like a bolger boat. It won't be a racer, but still faster than any comparable monohull and more comfortable to boot.

The overall beam seems a little narrow by current thinking, this may limit its "seaworthiness" too. However, this may have been purposely done to allow for lighter scantlings on the beams, bulkheads and house, keeping in line with the "build it fast and cheap" philosophy behind the boat. The Polynesian catamarans had a narrow beam due to materials limitations as well, and although they crossed oceans their catamarans were very slow (6 knots average at best in large historical catamaran reproductions sailing today)

It could probably use more lateral plane area as well, those LAR keels seem a little small proportionate to the boat.

Ray, does that builder in louisiana have any build photos? I would love if he could put his two cents here on this thread...

 

Richard, I realise that you have done a lot more boatbuilding than I have done, but I have done enough to realise that it tends to cost more than one thinks it will. Your USD21000 sounds cheap to me, are you sure? Earlier this year I did a rough building cost estimate for a 10m catamaran that I had in mind to build, indeed am still thinking about building. The planned construction method would be mainly plywood, but with strip planking for some curvy bits. That is a slightly larger boat, but I came up with £40000 based on good, but not the very best, materials and about the most basic equipment specification I thought sensible for coastal and occcasional offshore cruising and for living on board for a few weeks at a time. I could probably at least double that figure with top spec. materials and equipment.

 

In haste as its late at night.

Going from an 8.5 m catamaran like Gypsy to a 10m catamaran will cost at least 40% more. That's just scaling up the surface area, never mind any extra thickness

Strip planking is an expensive building method, far more than plywood and probably now more than conventional foam sandwich

I know for sure that I only spent GBP5000 on my Gypsy to first sailing it. Because that is all I had at the time. But I did spend more later on eg a spinnaker, solar panel, dinghy etc

You can see a detailed materials list by following the link on the Gypsy page of my website. You need about 60 sheets of plywood. The cheapest acceptable ply that you could use is about GBP12 a sheet (Chinese made though!)

My price included triradial mainsail and jib from Dolphin Sails. These were new. My mast was used, about 1960 vintage Proctor, cost GBP50. Boom cost GBP10, Roller reefing GBP20, rigging wire bottlescrews etc, all unused but old, at auction, GBP7. Engine a used 4 stroke Yamaha 9.9 GBP600. Cooker GBP20 at Beaulieu. All deck gear was used, only two winches needed. Windows came from a larger boat so I could cut them down to size and redrill the fastenings

You get the idea. Boat building can be cheap if you shop around. But I don't compromise on the hull materials - you can never change/upgrade that. Never risk your life on some shoddy material. My Gypsy had foam sandwich hulls and ply decks and cuddy. I always build oversize beams for piece of mind

Not even my Eclipse cost as much as GBP40000 to build, and that included paying for labour, having spectra sails etc

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

I looked into building one of Richard's boats before going with a different design (just wanted a different kind of boat). His building and materials list figures were mostly accurate and certainly his notion of scaling with LOA is accurate above.

I'm going to repeat myself, at the risk of sounding like a jerk - and this is a quote from Chris White:

"It takes the same amount of time and money to build a crappy boat, so might as well build a good one."

In this case, a wood/epoxy boat is a wood/epoxy boat and Richard's (a way better design) would cost about the same as the one at the start of the thread. A boat's a boat. It's a pile of materials. A 10 meter wood catamaran is a 10 meter wood catamaran. Just about the same amount of wood and epoxy involved in any one of them you build. ..... "might as well build a good one."

 

I agree with Cat, to an extent you pay by the pound no matter the design. And it would be best to take the good advice of Richard Woods and build the hulls out of good material, like the foundations of your house. Rick

 

Agree there. If you have to go the non marine ply route a good compromise is to use good 1/4 fir exterior. With 3 plies only the center can't be checked though the edges and over all quality give a good clue. 1/2 and 3/4 can then be laminated if you need to or 3/8 with planing but the extra work and glue cost make marine look more affordable. It really is worth it to use the best material and scrounge the things that can be upgraded later.
Hey Rick, In emailing with Outrig.org they say Ed Horstman has said he doesn't want to talk multihulls or be interviewed so I'm trying to get everyone in recent contact with him to help change his mind. He has a lot of knowledge and experiences that should be shared.

 

Just to back up what Richard is saying using the right materials does not always cost more in the long run, this is pricing we received for the build of the KD 800 Catamaran all pricing for the timber is in New Zealand dollars. So from the figures of materials Richard has told us of and the materials of your own designs do the math.

Just received the first price for Timber for the build.
Came to $5149.41 including GST.
I have attached the email quote below.

Hello There


I have listed what i have below



Plywood WB Ocumee



9mm 6 sheets of 2.5 x 1.220m @ $96.00

6mm 4 sheets of 2.5 x 1.220m @ $76.00



Birch Ply



6mm 4 sheets of 2.5 x 1.220m @ $65.00



Compass Ply



4mm ? sheets of 2.5 x 1.220m @55.00



Timber for strip plank



Western red cedar 9mm x 45mm 360mtrs @ $3.25

9mm x 25mm 420mtrs @ $2.75



Timber stringers Rudder/helm framing etc.



Clear Fir 20 x 20mm 170mtrs @ $5.15

Clear Fir 34 x 20mm 3.5mtrs @ $9.50

Clear Fir 35 x 30mm 12mtrs @ $17.00



ALL PLUS GST & EX YARD



Maybe give me a call when you can.



I await your reply



Paul Wickham

BBS TIMBERS LIMITED
Head Office
27 Kioreroa Road
PO Box 1407
Whangarei
NEW ZEALAND

 

if material cost was not important, you would not be building from wood at all would you? If foam/glass sandwich was cheaper than timber, which would you choose? nuff said...

Fact is, material cost IS important or we would all be cruising around in carbon/aramid boats...

 

My post also meant that if you have a pair of 10 meter cats and they are made from the same material, they will cost the same, so might as well build a good one.

The pile of materials for Richards cat will be of a similar cost and can even be all the same material. However, once you cut that pile of materials up, why not assemble a good boat that will sail well, have a proven safety record and be able to cross oceans?

 

Save your fingers Cat Builder some people will never stop chewing the bone long enough to take in what is being explained!!
All the best out there.... nuff said...

 

No, im just challenging the theory "might aswell build a good one" in that, i see it as "why build a wooden boat if you might aswell build a good one... a carbon one" if your going to do all that work anyway... see my point?

And no, Im not having a go at wooden boats either, its just that everything has its price... Money matters to all but the luckiest of us...

 

As I said in my earlier post I had very little money when I built my Gypsy (divorce, two mortgages to pay etc). Yet I decided to build my hulls in foam sandwich as the price difference to sheet ply was very slight. Also, because of my lack of boatbuilding skill I am happier building in glass than wood.

Maybe more important was that I could more accurately predict the cost as I only needed foam, glass and resin. I couldn't "forget" the price of fastenings, glue, paint etc

The fact that I would have "fit and forget maintenance free hulls" with a clean interior was a bonus

Incidentally, my Gypsy is currently for sale by its second owner for 3 times the original build cost

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

groper,
yes cost does matter, obviously the point being how cheap is stupid, cardboard and pva ? Cheap nasty plywood just wastes the labor content, good ply gives it value.
Carbon aramid on the CC30 is equally as stupid but on a Grainger for racing sure, how fast can you afford ?
RR

 

If i had unlimited funds and i were building my cruising cat myself i would be doing it for the pleasure of the build, not to save money so wood would be my first choice. Ive built in cold molded wood, WRC/epoxy composite, C-flex/polyester solid glass and foam core/vinylester in custom as well as solid glass and balsa cored boats in female molds, what i havnt built strangely enough is a larger plywood boat,lots of small S&G boats but nothing large so hope to one day.
Steve.