Look at What Happens to Peaceful Protesters in the States

Wow, so much miscommunication. I didn't see the name Hoyt in any of that. Why did you think it was about you, personally?

Those are things I heard in the news that struck me as odd.

 

Ugh. I give up. You are taking too many of my things out of context instead of providing your own viewpoint to the discussion. Bummer, because I thought it might prove an interesting discussion, with some things to consider from your end. I did enjoy the part about the corporations controlling the govt by applying less regulation/laws. That was going somewhere and I was about to post some thoughts on it, agreeing with it. Oh well.

Above, when I said, "I really can't have a discussion about this stuff if you aren't willing to concede that laws are how a government controls its people, economy, etc...", it wasn't some kind of threat or insult.

It was logic.

As in, if we can't agree on what the word "the" means, it could be hard to have a discussion. No foundation to build the discussion from.

If you think laws and other legislation (tax code??) have absolutely no effect on people or markets, I can't really have this discussion with you since the causality doesn't exist in your mind. There is no common ground for us to build the discussion from.

Oh well, it was a good start.

 

Very well stated and I couldn't agree with you more.. Fact is a lot of the so called laws are specifically written by lobbyist representing their own special interest of various groups whom they represent..

Just review a few top google results if you care to... lobbyist writing laws / bills

 

Don't look at me. You're the one who brought up all that stuff about real-life this vs. idealized that, vs. mythical or Easter Bunny-based something else. If you have an argument, it's with yourself.

The word capital (originally spelled capitale) has had essentially the same meaning for over 800 years. The words capitalist and capitalism in their present sense date back at least to the 1600's. Marx is a Johnny-come-lately.

The "ruling class?" Who would that be in this country today, if not the very captains of business, finance and industry you're so busy defending?

I think others have already answered that. They're doing better than we are -- mostly because they didn't give massive tax cuts to big business and the wealthy, while in the middle of not one but two wars. Nor do they turn a blind eye to their financial institutions, and let them get away with thievery and incompetence on a massive scale.

 

In this country the ruling class is elected by a majority. Like it or not the 99% claim is a lie. The majority of people have spoken with their vote. If the majority of the people choose corrupt politicians or those who cater to "big business" that is their right.

 

Go one step further and assume that voters made the correct decision from the list of candidates on offer.
Imagine how bad the losers are compared to what you have now

 

Correct or not, the numbers don't add up to the 99% claim.

 

Of course they don't add up to 99%: they're politicos, not bankers.
If they were bankers they would claim it was 199%

 

If you look at this whole set of recent social events in this country, it's a repeat of previous processes in our own history.

The Whig party suffered the exact same thing as the Republicans are now. The result was two parties, one died fairly quickly, while the other went on.

Several times in our short history we've had to reel in the ruling class. Each time has had several years of tumultuous upheaval. I can recite several distinct eras when this happened and over what issues, but the basic problem is Americans as a people and historically are much like short attention span ostriches. We put our collective heads in a hole and keep it there, until someone or thing comes along and kicks us in the butt. We pull our heads out, look around scream, dance, maybe kick some butt, then put our heads back in the sand again. We do this on social issues, political issues, monetarily issues, international concerns, you name it. It's the American way folks and history has repeatedly proven this to be true.

As a nation, we struggled with business and industrial concerns throughout the 19th century, eventually coming to terms with the "overlords" of industry in the beginning of the 20th century. The 20th century was defined by civil and personal freedom descriptions, on most levels and our maturity as a world leader. It's very likely the 21st century will be focused on privacy and refinement of individual rights.

The last conservative wave that swept this country, offered up the 18th amendment, but in light of the 21st, it probably wise these conservatives not mention their only social success in regard to the Constitution.

America is a land of centralists. The current wash of "screw 'em all" that has stood up on the right, will spin down the tube in the next few election cycles. This is the way of things in the USA. You can't have a party that insists on sending immigrants "back to where they came from", freedom of religion, unless of course you're a Muslim and that women do have the right to control their own health care, unless of course it's an abortion, without the whole lot getting tossed to the side, much likes the Whig party had done to it, when they tried very similar, narrow minded political approaches. This current conservative wave is now about 30 years old and folks have suddenly realized that "it didn't trickle down" like they promised.

That last several elections have been dominated by one main and quite obvious conclusion, which is the public thought they were tossing the bums out so to speak. In most cases they just elected the candidate that had the most money (96% of the time) and with recent laws and court decisions, this has just simply meant, he who had the most corporate sponsorship. We had this problem before and we fixed it, but in the last 30 years, the laws have been whittled down (by both parties) and now it's the same free for all it was in Teddy Roosevelt's day. We really could use another Teddy about now, but with the very likely outcome of the next election being little more then a reshuffling of the incumbents, it'll probably take a near coup to force congress into getting the money free for all, out of politics (again).

Lastly, if you know your history, this is very similar to the up roar that caused the 12th amendment. I'll bet a similar outcome will eventually prevail and the "upper crust" will lose a bit more of it's control over the masses. They'll find new strings to pull. They have the money for the "research", but ultimately the centralests will win out, they always do, because that's what we mostly are.

 

And remains so

I am STILL just brushing by this thread with insufficient time to even fully read the posts since we began laying out the points over the goals of the Occupy movement.
With the ready alibi out of the way-I will toss in another poorly formed rejoinder.

I picked up a point form the discussion of the 'problem' you were emphasizing as the in your discussion with Micheal. That being shareholders in publicly trading companies as being complicit in the support of a corporate influence in our societies.
The cycle of influence as you described it.
The end point of this cycle being described as laws established to support the purgatives of corporations.
You go further to say that the society is structured by these laws and by extension by the influence of corporate interest. Presumably you cite this due to a belief that the society would be improved by a lack of these laws and influence.

And you summarize by stating this whole issue as one of government "control"

Honestly I can't endorse this approach to how our society is formed in the united states.

1) I don't find abundant examples of 'laws' which are an aberration to how we should structure our activities.

2) I don't find that the government controls my actions. I do find the the government provides a full range of necessary functions which I support.

3) I do judge from observation that the primary thrust of corporate influence is to restrict government influence over the actions of special interests. One might say that the preponderance of activity is to block the establishment of 'laws' which provide protection for people, environment etc. I suppose i would characterize them as being free market enthusiasts to a man.

4) Corporations are the foundation of our economy. I am a share holder in a company who provides real benefit to our prospects in the US. I hope for their success in lobbying efforts and forward that your position to the extent that it is true, argues for the existence of social benefit from corporate influence as well as harm.

5) Laws may censure ("control") behavior or protect it. My take is that most laws in the US serve to protect the rights of action in our population, not censure it.
I live in a free society where opportunity abounds because of the laws here, not in spite of them.


I can't find the post just now but somewhere you say (and I paraphrase): "people around the world are fed up with with governments which do not address their needs, and are demanding change".
I don't think I see this or join these people if this is in fact the case.

Another running out the door post- so there you have it- missing the 'nuance' and what was the other one.... ?
I am a simpleton but everyone knows this- I have been posting here long enough- Ha

Hopefully back at you when I have had time to throw some heavier rocks..

 

In the USA at least, if The People demand change it can completely remove and replace every politician in six years.

 

This one is in italian, but I think words are similar enough to english ones, so that they can be understood by anyone.
It surely is felt personally by each one of us on a daily basis:

View attachment 64111


P.S.:
Ok, a hint: a word in the bottom in the middle is "citizens".

 

Prego.

The banks can only do what the government tells them. Fix the government and you fix the banks.
Don't force the banks to lend to unworthy borrowers and everyone will be better off.

L'cittadini get the government they deserve, the whining rabble, by voting for thieving self-aggrandizing opportunists hoping for a free hand out.

 

You said people said that.
I'm people ain't I?

 

Easter bunny?