Minimum Passagemaker/Cruiser

So you have nothing then but more ePenis posturing?

Best get that condition of yours checked out by a medical professional Dick

 

Come now Richard. Seaworthy is a system. Some folks can take the accelerations you get in a cat in bad weather and come out the other side just fine. Its subjective.

The problem is that cats ride nice right up to a point and then the ride turns violent fast with the addition of a little more weather. It's tough knowing where that point is weather wise and what that ride will be like beyond that point while you are home building. Especially when you dont' follow the designers plans closely.

What I question but don't have a lot of knowledge with is the empty weight of his 50' cat being 10,350 lbs 4,700 kg. This from a guy who can't live without a king size bed and air conditioning and a few other goodies that really add weight. Its certainly possible if he does not have much of a bridge structure. I can also see the 4000kg load adding up to a range of about 2000nm but I just cannot see something that light being a real passagemaker even as a cat.

He would need 550 gallons of fuel (2080L) to do 2000NM at 10 knots with AC and perhaps 200 gallons of water. That leaves a mear 3,100 lbs for everything else under the sun including the dink, beer, batteries, supplies and safety gear.

My guess would be closer to 25,000 lbs with everything he says he is adding in other threads which would be over budget on weight. Actually I can't even envision the hulls and machinery being below 10,350 lbs (4700kg) on a home build although I cannot rule it out. I can't call him a total liar like Michael cuz I just don't have enough facts but I have my doubts.

 

I have always said that IF, bad weather was encountered during the perfect weather window and I could not slow or run, I would be happy to use parachute anchor

I am following the designers plans exactly

Lets see
A king size bed is 40kg
a split system a/c is 50kg
2000 litres of fuel is 1700kg (and getting lighter by the hour)
no need for 750 litres of water as watermaker and 200l will do, so lets say 250kg?
Dinghy and outboard say 100kg max?

That leaves me with what, about 1900kg left for batteries, food,safety gear and other stuff?

What other stuff?

Well there you go then.

 

I have my doubts on the total viability of that plan.

Gee with 4 people on a 2000 Nm passage I would not be taking a shower until past the half way mark and even then a very short one but I suppose that is minimal. I would also not be washing dishes in fresh water.

I am not sure I would highlight getting lighter as you are already too light in my opinion fully loaded for passagemaking.

Um, ahhh maybe some type of system to power that AC by?

 

Thats fine
Perhaps look here to put your fears at ease http://www.dddb.com/news.html

Like I said previously, I plan on cruising areas with little to no wind and weeks on end of glassy calm so pretty pointless having a north sea trawler for those conditions
It would be similar to all those people driving SUV's and 4x4's on the off chance that once a year they may find themselves on a dirt road.
or buying a truck for your daily ride because you may want to carry a load once a year.
Pretty silly dont you think?

You do understand what a watermaker does dont you?
there is a hint in the name

Well that is your opinion and you are welcome to it
Plenty of light vessels on passage all over the world every year with no problems whatsoever

Oh, Ok, another 55kg for the generator

1850kg left

 

I can only dream of conditions like that.

Yup, you pretty much admit you don't need a passagemaker.

A bit patronizing don't you think? You don't seem to take the sea very seriously so I would guess Apex might be right.

This is true, It proves that most of the time there is no problem. But like investments, past performance in good times is no guarantee of future performance in bad times.

Portable Petrol maybe but not an installed diesel

 

I suppose that's why you feel the need for a different build of vessel, built for the conditions you predominately have

I have done the same

90% of the time you would be correct
Most of the time I will be at anchor
the balance will be shorter 50nm to100nm hops to the next spot every other fortnight
Once a year for several days I will need a passagmaker.

Are you honestly going to tell me that the whole time you are afloat will be crossing oceans under power?
or is the reality that you will also only be doing these passages for several days a year

Patronizing? compared to who?
As for taking it seriously, I take it serious enough to have a device for daily water replenishment.

I also have a vessel with redundant fuel systems (4 in each hull)
Redundant electrical systems (1 in each hull)
and a redundant engine and drive train (1 in each hull)

I also have a vessel that is inherently buoyant

Is all that serious enough for you?

Clearly you must be a bury the money in the backyard type of guy
Personally, I figure life needs a bit of calculated risk on occasion.

I'm sorry
Was there a stipulation that a genset must be installed diesel? I must have missed that.

Installed diesel it is then @ 110kg

1800kg left

 

With those figures you have a perfect cat for you.. but that's island hopping still what you are talking about. Nothing wrong with that.. but you are in a wrong thread.

 

Teddy, I dont understand your comment.
are you trying to say that to be a passagemakers you must never stop?
Are you trying to say that to be a passagmakers you must never have done small trips?

Because if you agree that they do stop
And they do also do small trips
Then you must also be saying that they are not passagemakers, but instead are Island hoppers

And teddy, How many Island Hoppers are capable of 2000nm passages?

Which takes us full circle back to post #154

Teddy, you obviously have some other definition?
Care to share it with us?

Would you consider a vessel capable of motoring from Cape Town to the Tortolas a passagemaker?

 

What I mean, there's passages and there's passages. If the only route for a boat over an ocean goes a certain route, like Bermuda Azores, it's quite limited don't you agree?

 

Bermuda Azores ? Canaries Trinidad. If you can do these trips you are Not limited. Virtually every production plastic boat is capable of three weeks of autonomy. The concept of a A passagemaker implies a few week autonomy ,whether cruising an archipelago of crossing and ocean.

 

There you go again. You know damned well he is not trying to say they never stop. Its always a tradeoff between a battle tank and an open airy floating dock condo when it comes to passagemakers. The more minimal the passagemaker, the more its going to resemble a battle tank. Its that simple, get over it.

I think you can build a cat that I would classify as a passagemaker in and around the 50' to 60' level but you don't have it.

As Michael is quick to always point out if they have rags they all are but doesn't he sees any distinction between a rag boat and a passagemaker.

Absolutely and then some. 5,700 miles is well above the minimum.

 

Do I?
read his post
he knows damn well I said I have a 2000nm+ range
yet seems to have dismissed the vessel calling it an Island Hopper because I will anchor and do short passages as well
See below

What's more minimal?
I could have a bare painted shell with only engines, fuel , steering and 25 litre plastic water tanks in it
I would call that minimal
And it would look, from the outside, identical to a fully kitted out version
So where does the battle tank come into it

Get over what exactly?

Care to explain why?
It has range and economy
Waterline length fitting into your parameters
Load carrying ability
Redundancy, redundancy and more redundancy
Built from positively buoyant materials, which is more than can be said for monohulled steelies.
What else do you deem to be missing?

I look forward to your response

Right, so you deem this vessel a passagemaker for the simple fact that it can do a passage on its own bottom.
You have no idea what it is, but because it has done this trip IT IS A PASSAGEMAKER according to you

The vessel is a Leopard-37-power-cat

It has less waterline length than mine
and carries less fuel than mine
BUT YOU call it a passagemaker

And mine, which also does well above the minimum, you apparently cant accept as a passagemaker, how does that work?

 

Apex my boy, you might just be right and me naive again.

If you have to ask where the battle tank philosophy comes into it then we are never here going to be able to explain all of the deficiencies of your boat. I am sure if you had to ask you will be building in even more deficiencies as you go along.

Sabahcat I think you have probably selected the best boat for your understanding of what you want to do and you probably will do no more than island hop as you say. Why then have you spent the better part of this thread trying to justify your boat as a true passagemaker when that is not your intent?

NO IT AIN'T, Its another company sponsored publicity stunt to make a product seem much more seaworthy than it is. They did of course refuel as most people would so no 5,700 miles. Another great example of this was a crossing to Hawaii by a Great Harbor 37, a very uncomfortable boat in a 1-1.5 m chop. Another the circumnavigation of the Nordhavn 40.

 

I'm building my own (island hopper ) with ~2000nm range (motoring). Thou it's a motorsailer the range is somewhat greater than that, and it's planned for 1.5 month/2crew out without getting worried about proviants.. and I still doesn't consider it as a passagemaker. Merely smth like "sailabout" boat (like walkabout offshore)