Minimum Passagemaker/Cruiser

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by mydauphin, Sep 29, 2010.

?

What is minimum that you can handle?

Poll closed Oct 29, 2010.
  1. I can only live in a proper yacht

    2 vote(s)
    6.1%
  2. Need: Size between 40 and 50 feet

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  3. Need: Size between 30 and 40 feet

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  4. Need: Size smaller than 30 feet ok

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  5. Need: Power

    22 vote(s)
    66.7%
  6. Need: Sail

    19 vote(s)
    57.6%
  7. Need: Single Engine

    24 vote(s)
    72.7%
  8. Need: Twin Engine

    5 vote(s)
    15.2%
  9. Need: Head and holding tank

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
  10. Need: Air conditioner and Generator

    7 vote(s)
    21.2%
  11. Need: Watermaker

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  12. I don't care if interior looks like my garage

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  13. Need: DC Power Only

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  14. Need: Carpeting

    4 vote(s)
    12.1%
  15. Need: Wood floors

    9 vote(s)
    27.3%
  16. Need: Satellite TV

    3 vote(s)
    9.1%
  17. Need: Internet

    13 vote(s)
    39.4%
  18. Need: Hot Water Shower

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  19. Need: Manual Bilge pumps

    17 vote(s)
    51.5%
  20. Need: Propane Stove

    16 vote(s)
    48.5%
  21. Need: Freezer

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  22. Need: A boat that won't shame me at the marina.

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  23. Need: Windlass

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  24. Need: Dingy

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 1,792
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    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    Reality Check?

    I took the poll results and sorted them by responses, I eliminated conflicts (power/sail) (length) (single/twin).


    SOR Votes Percent
    Need: Head and holding tank 26 78.79%
    Need: Dingy 26 78.79%
    Need: Single Engine 24 72.73%
    Need: Power 22 66.67%
    Need: Hot Water Shower 18 54.55%
    Need: Windlass 18 54.55%
    Need: Manual Bilge pumps 17 51.52%
    Need: Propane Stove 16 48.48%
    Need: Size between 30 and 40 feet 15 45.45%
    Need: Watermaker 15 45.45%
    Need: DC Power Only 15 45.45%
    Need: Internet 13 39.39%
    Need: Freezer 12 36.36%
    Need: A boat that won't shame me at the marina. 12 36.36%

    The sample is only 33 votes but this is what the "committee" came up with:

    A 30-40 foot, single engined boat. It must have a head, dinghy, hot water, windlass, manual bilge pumps, propane stove, watermaker, and freezer. It must run on DC power only, have internet access, and look good to the owner.

    Anyone else see the problems here?

    40 foot LWL is a 6.4 knot boat. 3500 miles at 6.4 knots is about 23 days.

    Is it a reasonable expectation to have enough fuel and provisions for a crew of 2? 3? 4? for 23 days in a 40 foot boat?

    How many people have lived on a 30-40 foot boat without going ashore for three weeks? I see all sorts of compromises that many feel would make such a boat less seaworthy than a passagemaker should be.

    After 15 pages of discussion should we create a new poll to see if the SOR changes?

    R
     
  2. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 116, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Not so fast Chuck. First you must state the displacement and type. Only then will you know the available interior volume to work with. Systems take space. I say you should Propose a preferred displacement and preferred type..... sail, motorsailer or power ..... otherwise you will just go in circles..

    Opps !!!...forgot about you multihull guys. Better give them a say also, the 40 to 50 ft range is the multi hull sweet spot
     
  3. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 1,792
    Likes: 61, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 793
    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    A few more semi-random thoughts ... after thinking about what I want to change on my boat after a couple a years.

    Noise ... helm station noise at cruise should be as low as possible. Less than 80dBA for sure, that is about the level of a telephone dial tone. 70 dBA would be better. My boat is under 78 dBA at 1300 RPM cruise, and 83 dBA at 2600 RPM. Not bad, but quieter would be better.

    This may sound silly; Automatic, rain sensing windshield wipers. If they can do it on $15,000 cars, you should be able to have them on a 40-60 foot boat.

    Windshield washers with anti-siphon valves. The washer fluid should start *before* the blades.

    An anchor chain locker that somehow prevents the chain from knotting after a few days running upwind. I don't know how to design this, I do know that many old hands stuff the top of the chain locker so the chain cannot move around before they head north from Mexico. This effectively puts the anchor out of commission until the packing is removed, but removing the packing is less hassle than trying to unknot the chain.

    An automatic fog signal. Do we really want to push a button every 2 minutes? (solved with ICOM VHF radio and loud hailer).

    Running lights as high as practical. Little boats get lost in waves.

    Radar reflector. It is amazing how poor the return is on many 40-50 foot boats. Your radar lets you see others, you also want them to see you. I'd consider an active transponder that would broadcast AIS type information only when it is pinged by another radar. I'm not sure I want to broadcast AIS info past line of sight, but making it easy for any vessel that "sees" me on their radar to have Call Sign and MMSI information would be nice. Having the ability to highlight an AIS target and have the AIS system feed the MMSI number to the VHF would be good too. (I have not looked for systems that do this, they may exist).

    Decent side decks and hand rails should be on the list, as should dedicated storage for fenders and docklines.

    Lots of anchors and storage so they are ready without overhauling the rode. Some thought to the stern anchor system during the design phase. I find myself avoiding one particular anchorage solely because I haven't worked out an easy fore and aft system that is the norm at Careyes. The PNW has many nice anchorages where the practice is bow anchor and a stern line to shore. That goes on my list too.
     
  4. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 116, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    The anchor chain locker shaped like a pyramid....wide bottom, narrow neck, equal to the approximate chain volume...100 meters of 12mm or whatever is suitable for your use, has been used on custom built yachts for many years. Never any chain "heave", even when the yacht rolls 360 degrees
     
  5. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 844
    Likes: 26, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 31
    Location: nation of Ohio

    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Gunship,

    Regarding post #222, the longer 6-1 passagemaker should be the same displacement or very close.
     
  6. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 1,792
    Likes: 61, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 793
    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    I struggle with this. If you learn how to read weather the chances of spending 12 hours in gale conditions is very low. If you have a 3 day window in a 10 knot boat when you leave port, you should also have a 3 day forecast available at all times. 72 hours at 10 knots gives you 720 miles of gale avoidance room.

    IMO there is no reason to plan a passage with more than a 10% chance of gales enroute. Obviously the kinder the motion the less you are constrained by weather but I think if you are not on a schedule you can pick your weather to much greater extent than most people think. All the passages made in great weather do not turn into good sea stories. Thus most of what is published gives a picture of "sudden storms" and day after day of rough weather. I submit that reality is not reflected.

    Some "common knowledge" is self perpetuating. Going north from Mexico is a case in point. Just past Cabo San Lucas you have Cabo Falso, a whole 15 miles of wind wave convergence zone. 3 hours at 5 knots ... yet many tales are told about boats being turned back more than once. South of Turtle Bay has the old timers "I've done this 100 times" going up the shoreline while the weather information shows flatter water on the rhumb line. After you leave Turtle, the 100 times delivery skippers advise going up the inside (east) of the island. This means navigating a narrow channel that is littered with fishing boats and is the beginning of the kelp zone. These same skippers tell you to make sure you have some good cutters to free the wheels ... "I always manage to snag a net or line every time I go north" ...
    The north end of Cedros is another wind wave convergence zone. After 30 miles in the lee of the island you run right into the worst conditions, easy to find stories of 100 foot yachts "stuck" at Cedros for days before they manage to bust out of that zone, yet the old ways die hard:
    "Cedros beats me up every time."
    "Have you considered going up outside?"
    "No, I've always gone inside."
    If you have a good 72 hour forecast, you leave turtle at midnight, avoid the fishing gear and the narrow channel, go up the outside of Cedros and clear the north end of the island by 10 miles and get there in the early morning when conditions are best.

    I won't detail all the other spots on the way north, I just want to make the point that you can chose your weather to a very great extent.

    Worrying about motion in a gale for 12 hours is a pretty low priority for me. I suspect if you asked 1000 skippers that have made a Pacific Crossing if they spent 12 hours in gale conditions the number would be very low.
     
  7. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 1,792
    Likes: 61, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 793
    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    Thanks. This is one of the few things I consider to be a design failure on my boat. I'll take a look at a partition that will have that effect.

    R
     
  8. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 116, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Something to remember when you build or have a boat built , is that the designers have very low sea time. They don't actually use the boats and systems they design. Pyramid chain lockers ? , day tank baffles inside the fuel tanks ?... these details are common sense and widely used in the marine industry, but designers consistently overlook them. There are hundreds of little details that you must bring to the architects and the builders attention ,then insist that they be incorporated into the design .
     
  9. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 2,321
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    Location: Flattop Islands

    Tad Boat Designer

    Please substantiate this statement........are there any successful, independent, designers of custom yachts that do not have substantial sea time? Name them please........

    Interior designers and stylists generally have little if any sea time, in-house production boat designers are usually industrial design graduates and have little if any sea time.....but you are not going to be believable as an independent designer unless you go to sea......

    Besides that fact designers create that which is requested by owner's and builders......and that includes the detail design.....you get what you pay for.......experienced designers are few and request reasonable compensation for their expertise.....but some guy (or gal) in India or China will do it cheaper.....so we'll go with him....heck it's only drawings.......
     
  10. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: Flattop Islands

    Tad Boat Designer

    This thread concerns a Minimum Passagemaker.......so what amount of "Passagemaking" might the average user of such a vessel undertake.....

    I did some research of the current 15 Nordhavn listings of 50' or less, not including the 35' coastal cruiser. They range in age from 3 to 20 years, and engine hours (time under way) ranges from 83 to 530 hours per year, but these are extremes. The average for 15 boats is 284 hours (11.83 days) under way per year.

    So of those 11.83 days at sea per year, one would probably have good weather......? ......60-70% of the time? So....say 4 days per year when weather is less than optimum.......to me this sounds like one or perhaps two storms per year....or perhaps none?

    So how much do you slant the design to weather the ultimate storm when the boat will only go out in the ocean for 12 days per year?
     
  11. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Forget about michaels nonsense. You just need the chains with a "member" between the outer part. You know, the ones forming a sort of 8.... These never build up a messy pile. The chain lkr can have any shape, but should have a proper drainage to get rid of condensate (and some seawater in severe weather).

    Regards
    Richard
     
  12. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    Location: Finland/Norway

    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    Or how many boaters sail with wrong boat :rolleyes:..
    and no, I don't consider Nordhavn as a (good) passagemaker..
     
  13. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Who builds pyramide chain lockers you retard? Who builds your idiotic tank layout, retard? And as Tad already pointed out, all the NA´s YOU know are possibly ignorant. But sure you don´t know many, if any.
    As you don´t know anything about sailing, or crossing oceans.

    You are a liar and a bigmouth Mr. Pierzga. Stop talking nonsense, better, stop talking....

    Teddy,

    not me either.......
     
  14. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 1,792
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    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    For exactly the same reason reason you see boats in a marina that have not moved in a year.

    There is probably a photo of the boat in the owner's office. He looks at the photo and *knows* (thinks he knows) that any time he wants to he can tell the boss to take a leap and go to Tahiti. But until then ... one week of vacation is doing what his wife wants, the other week is when they use the boat, plus about half of the long weekends. I doubt the low hour owners even consider how their usage shortens the service life of many systems.

    It never ceases to amaze me how many people buy boats based on what they think they want to do, rather on what they really do.

    If the customer thinks they need a passagemaker, they expect all the heavy weather design and gear, without it you can't sell the boat. I agree it makes little sense.
     

  15. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
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    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Gee Tad, I know first class designers. They know the job, they know the customer, they know the shipyards , They work hard, they love boats and they work in offices . I work on the sea. I use this stuff everyday .
    Tad, Do you design pyramid shaped anchor lockers ? How come every yacht does not have one ?
    When a designer tells me that the best tender to design into the deck plan, because of it small footprint, is a jet tender, I say...Waite one minute !!! us old guys who use this stuff every day have been cutting the transom out and hinging it to allow the outboard to fold forward,into the tender, for a reduced height, lenght footprint for years..and years and years and they tell me...first time Ive ever seen that !. Does its leak ?
    Tad, I walk down the marina and see a dozen nice sailing yachts with no helmsmans foot stand and yachts in which the helmsman cant reach the mainsheet and hold the wheel at the same time.
    The only yachts that Ive ever sailed that have a life harness tether pad eye welded to the steering wheel hub, are the ones in which I insisted it be done.

    Of course Its entirely possible that the customer who commissioned a design did not retain and pay the designer to detail the yacht and pass on his experience as a seaman.... Or the customer did not insist that details be incorporated into the design because they wee inexperienced or unaware. . Who knows.
    What I do know is that additional detailing all throughout the yacht, on every system is what makes a great boat.
    Do your sailing yachts have diesel accumulator sump tanks built into the keel ?. Do your yachts have removable, mechanically fastened, plates on the keel sides for black and grey water tank clean out ?
    Detail, Details Details....thousands of details. Lets hope the designers know them and the client is willing to pay for them.
     
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