Origami steel yacht construction

Brent I have to admit-- the more investigate this--the more i think it is really going to be a great way to build my boat..I will email you more when i do the elevation and offsets. give me a couple weeks to fair up my lines a bit and make some small adjustments....Ill take "Franks" advice and drop the prop a few inches more and add a slight offset, since thats not clear on the plans i posted that the prop is actually centered in the aperture.
I will also drop the rudder back a few inches to accomodate my oversized rudder.
i wondered also if it would be easier to form the hull if i started the chine not at the bow but around a 1/4 of the way from the bow in order to develop a slightly rounded bow section entering into the chine further down- this would simulate a round bilge hull to about a 1/4 of the hull where the sharp bends would be at the chine???...hopefully i am being clear...its hard to express through words on a forum

 

From 7' to 250' bulk carrier: 250 plus designed
Part of a design team on a submarine.
From 6' to 70' and more fishing vessel: an hundred built by myself and my crew in my shipyard
IOR racer: quarter tons, half tons one tonner design and built.
MotorYacht for governmental use: more than 50 designed of steel
Trimaran and catamaran: Four in fiberglass and wood
Fishing sport: 55' composite built
One prototype closed skirt hovercraft.
Never been able to change to computer when they started. I still use my integrator. The last one was built for me by an old German Gentleman in Los Angeles. It cost twenty time a software. But it is a beauty. I always had the Haff, but they shut down this part of the product. all my drafting instrument come from Haff
I design in large scale, generally 45 to 50" in length on Mylar. Sometime I draw to 60".
Sailed several offshore race mostly in the Baltic.
Spend several winter in Iceland in a research boat designed and built by my yard for a German Artist who had residence overthere.
Spend a lot of time in the North Sea and high latitude although my base was in Spain.
Did some fishing campaign in the North Atlantic during the winter season. (I had to check how my vessel and the hardware built by us behave)
I can't say ho many miles I sailed, I should get back to the pile of log book for that.
Have three degree. One in naval architecture, one in art history, and one as a master shipbuilder.
I am a member of several society, and enjoy my membership since I learn a lot from the different meetings we have all over.
I love to built myself, like you, but my favorite medium is wood, not only wood but timber.
I use common sense when necessary, like you do.
I don't do boxing, in my free time I sail or draw and paint. I love drawing cartoon.
I live far from civilization in the State of Maine who as a border with Canada.
I go visit friend overthere and I have good time. Nice shipyard.
And I still disagree with your design concept.
And sorry my life in boat started earlier than yours ten year ago.
Now, would like to date since you ask desperately about me?
Daniel
P.S. The basic geometric fact is Conical development.

 

thank you for this Daniel

 

really what it all boils down to is this

origami, you end up with anything, no shape, no flowing lines, , no U shape, no entry, just a piece of pipe nipped in at the ends
A sailboat changes shape so rapidly near the forefoot underbody , so that is lofting and building you can see this m form changing every foot or so
Longtitudanly framed boats are so limited when it comes to this change in shape
You take a boat typical trad, as I build, as the Dutch and Germans build, which has a frame at say 400mm centres, each is different Each plate is shaped, stretched then formed
origami is for I suppose beginners, but you know even beginners can learn the RIGHT way We are not going to change , it is as easy and cost effective to build a beautiful yacht as it is to build a chine pig, and the chine pig, the origami, will be worth a 100 times less upon sale
There are many ways to build a yacht, but there are no shortcuts

 

Daniel--do you have any pics of your boats?--and after reading your credentials i am impressed by your amount of experience. I would like to knwo mroe about your sub design experience- as you know i like the idea of a civil submarine cruiser.
may i ask where you got your NA degree from??
thanks for posting that!
i may ask your advice from time to time if thats ok?
_________________________________________________________________
conventional steel boatbuilding would have been unconventional at one time ..it took many years to be accepted. as did other newer types of building ways such as stitch and glue wood and cold molding. even fiberglass was frowned upon at first and so was the use of epoxy and cores etc...maybe even those are still frowned upon but there are lots of boats out there that work that use those methods. there isnt a perfect boat design or method in MHO

whoosh-i like the design in the picture in front of your name?..i recently saw a commercial that had a similar design--whats the name of that type of boat?? is that a type of power sharpie?

 

apex1- actually i got the idea of possibly using the origami method from a naval architect who i bought a set of small tugboat plans from in Gloucester Mass.- he is well known tugboat NA and focused his designs on small 25-30 ft working tugs for amateur builders. he is now retired but he still sells his plans. He also has a wealth of workboat experience- His name is Mal Low-
his website can be found at www.smalltugs.com. thats where i first heard of origami- he pointed out some websites about it and thats when i came here to look into it. one thing led to another and - here i am
but prior to that i had thought of it also because when i built a steel hulled houseboat before I thought it would be so easy to do if i could build the steel hull like stitch and glue.
peace!

 

stitch and glue

Hello Tug
Another method would be skin first, simular to stitch and glue. The bottom, side, and transom panels are cut ahead of time then you would assemble in a 3 or 4 frome basket mold. starting with the bottom panels tack welding the center-keel section together then put the sides in and tack them up along the chines. You end up with the shell pretty quick then you add the longs, frames, bulkheads
Just another method
Tom

 

Especially shortcuts that are beleived to make construction both easier and stronger at the same time. Despite everything your grandma told you about cake.

Have a look at my post 106 on the thread below.

link : http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/classification/transverse-frame-calculation-32584-7.html

 

This is exactly what I've been doing since 1980, eliminating the chines and chine seam for the first 8 ft from the bow and the last 8 ft from the transom. This eliminates 64 feet of cutting , grinding, fitting and welding making the chine only 14 feet long on a 36 footer, the rest being totally rounded and seamless. The only seams in the first 8 ft of the bow and the last 8 ft of the stern are the centreline and the corners of the transom.
This makes the hull almost indistinguishable from a round bilged hull in the water. It also makes for an extremely fair hull. When you get my book , this will become obvious from the patterns and photos.
The origami tug built in Nanaimo had a full length chine , but he two halves were joined at the bow to make a fully rounded bow.

 

"There are no shortcuts"is no doubt what livery stable owners told Henry Ford, when he started putting out his horseless carriage, or Wilbur and Orville Wright when they tried to fly. Turned out livery stable owners were wrong, as wrong as origami boat critics are today. There definitely ARE shortcuts.
"Keep it simple " is what most cruisers tell us, after much offshore experience, yet some suggest ' Accept the complex and expensive without question." Do you see the contradictions?
"There are no shortcuts "is to suggest that nothing we do today can possibly be improved.

The largest sheet I have ever handled was a sheet of half inch plate 12 feet by 60 feet.
It comes from Asia in a big roll about 150 feet long , rolled up like a sheet of toilet paper, It is rolled flat and cut in North Van to whatever length the suppliers want. 8 ft by 40 feet, 3/16th are not uncommon. I've been told that Tidy Tanks in BC have wider sheets.

 

< mod note: I've tried to clean this thread up a bit. Please, let's keep the discussion about design, strengths or weaknesses, but without personal attacks >

 

Brent
It looks like Jeff has been cleaning up your posts in both threads. Why can't you work with the people who really inderstand structures rather than the diatribe you dish up.

Now there is a valid offer to actually show you once and for all what is going on, its on the other thread

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/classification/transverse-frame-calculation-32584-8.html#post367990

See my post 116 I think it was.

What you don't want to admit is that there are shortcuts but they make weaker boats for the material schedule.

 

Reading some of the above, about transverse versus internals, it seems that one aspect that is missing is that a boat has two sides. Plus a deck and a keel line ie: the shape of an egg. In Origami 'Imagiro" boats built in steel, this consideration is taking to full advantage.

 

Tanton
It's about the method promoted by Brent whereby the longitudinal frames ( the only frames ) are welded to the hull plate before it is pulled into shape.

If your egg was built the same way with stressed internal framing it wouldn''t be as strong either.

The whole basis of Brents reasoning is that the longitudinal framing remains in compression simply becasue it is in compression from the fabrication method and curved. Clearly that's incorrect and he's had that explained before but refuses to accept it .

The next step once you've shown that you get contraflexure )not across a frame as normal) is to see where that stress goes and what happens.
If we look at a structure similar to a section of the hull plate and longitudinal frame and analyse it ( I did) it buckles at a significantly lower load than the same shape with a pre bent or pre cut frame.

Thats all I'm saying at the moment and that is interesting.
Sure the rest of the hull serves to restrain the plate around the edges and the longitudinals at the ends. But the analysios is valid. It clearly indicates that the method Brent uses is Weaker and acts counter to the desired characterisitcs of a frame.

The frame extreme fibres should not be in compression as fabricated. I'd like to come back to this with some real figures when I get time. If I knew the real level of pre-stress and had some design details I can be quite accurate.

 

Longs

Mike
Many thanks for your input here
It would be interesting to find out how much weaker it is and if a change in proceders would be worth it. Welding the angle iron longs on to the the flat layed out plate is a lot simpler and it does help keep the hull fair when pulling it together. Another thing to think about is a lot of the origami boats are home built by less than par welding, I mean there just learning or dont have much experiance, Not a good combination to have them climb around in the hull welding overhead under a flange in some really awkward positions.
Tom