What Do We Think About Climate Change

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by Pericles, Feb 19, 2008.

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  1. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    imagine a world in which the government is sucking up over 50% of its citizens income
    not providing education or health services and still is going broke

    unbelievable

    the revolution will not be televised
     
  2. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    lets stick to the living shysters and once there all hanging in a nice row off the white house portcullis
    focus on fixing the future
    and leave the errors of the past were they belong
    and that from a native american
    who would have thought
    it wont do to forget the past
    but we need to move forward and this time without the grand dillusions

    I say the million man march shoulda shoulded walk right into the white house and thrown the bums out and into a nice cozy jail cell
    let them wait for some due process a while while we confiscate there wealth and use it to pay off the debt they saddled us with
     
  3. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    There's also a lot of BS being posted about unions on here. Maybe some of you people working for wages, particularly if you're a blue-collar worker, need to go back and study the history of labor movements in this country.

    Union organizers and labor activists literally died, so you ungrateful S.O.B's could have a lot of stuff you take totally for granted on the job.

    If nothing else, go read up on the Ludlow Massacre of 1914. On behalf of the mine owners, the Colorado National Guard machine-gunned and burned a tent camp where striking miners' families had been living, after they were booted from company housing. 19 people died, including women and children.

    It set off the Coalfield War, which killed two hundred people and ended when Federal troops were called in to disarm both sides - displacing and often arresting the National Guard and the mine owner's private militias in the process.

    You know why they were striking? Because over 1700 miners had died in Colorado mines between 1884 and 1912. And because the miners were paid only for the coal they mined, which means they had to do things like cut timber and shore the mines on their own time. And to add insult to injury, they were short-weighting the coal and screwing them on their pay.

    I'm going to quote Wikipedia here about the results of that strike and those deaths, because it's accurate:

    Although the UMWA failed to win recognition by the company, the strike had a lasting impact both on conditions at the Colorado mines and on labor relations nationally. John D. Rockefeller, Jr. engaged labor relations experts and future Canadian Prime Minister W. L. Mackenzie King to help him develop reforms for the mines and towns, which included paved roads and recreational facilities, as well as worker representation on committees dealing with working conditions, safety, health, and recreation. There was to be no discrimination against workers who had belonged to unions, and the establishment of a company union. The Rockefeller plan was accepted by the miners in a vote.

    A United States Commission on Industrial Relations (CIR), headed by labor lawyer Frank Walsh, conducted hearings in Washington, collecting information and taking testimony from all the principals. The commission's report suggested many reforms sought by the unions, and provided support for bills establishing a national eight-hour work day and a ban on child labor.


    If you've been sucked in by all the BS about "union thugs" by people like Rush Limbaugh, you might want to look at the numbers of union organizers and members killed over the years. I guarantee you'll find they were the victims more often than the ones committing the violence. Mine owners and factory owners had the money to hire genuine thugs, and usually had the state and local government in their pockets.
     
  4. alanrockwood
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    alanrockwood Senior Member

    My view is a little different. I do not think it is wise to sweep the past under the rug or to absolve the guilty.

    It is too easy for apologists (I actually don't know if you are a Reagan apologist, so I can't accuse you of that crime) to say "The past is the past, so let's forget about it and look to the present or the future instead."

    The problem is, that way no one is ever held responsible for bad deeds.

    By the way, if you are indeed of native American ancestry then our country carries a great burden of guilt for the way your ancestors were treated. Actually, in my view, the mistreatment has not entirely gone away, even today. For example, not too many years ago I was living in the state of Washington, and there was a popular movement afoot to try to abrogate the treaty rights of the local Indians by denying them their fishing rights.
     
  5. alanrockwood
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    alanrockwood Senior Member

    Troy has the history pretty much spot on.

    I myself have never been a member of a union, and in my younger years it would be fair to say that my attitudes were strongly anti-union. However, as I got older and learned a bit more about it I came to understand that for all their faults (and they are many) the unions have played an essential role in improving the lives of American workers, even those workers who are not union members. The people of this country would be in far worse shape than they are today had he unions failed.
     
  6. mark775

    mark775 Guest

    Troy, Lets go back to the roots of the union - where they did GOOD things. I agree.
    Wood, what can I say? You are a F'ing idiot. "there was a popular movement afoot to try to abrogate the treaty rights of the local Indians by denying them their fishing rights." Since Scumbag Puyallup Chief Satiacum's bought Arizona judge buddy Tanner affirmed the bleeding heart Bolt decision and gave 2% of the population 50% of the fish, decided that wasn't good enough and set a benchmark of 65%, so that Sitiacum, et. al., could fill the back seat of his white Cadillac with king salmon and the regular native got nothing from the riches a few stole from them and us, I suggest you get your head BACK up your hole where we can't hear you. God, I am just getting sick of liberal idiots.
    That being said, it's not fair to use this space for this but if anyone has a right, it is those making the link between politics and AGW.
     
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  7. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    just for the record I am miles from the republican swamp and a far cry from the democratic cesspool as well. I offer no quarter to any politician and believe in a clean sweep of all regardless of party affiliation or excuses as to there responsibility, they are guilty one and all and should be given a fair trial and then shot :D

    sooner the better

    Troy
    once upon a time there was a group of people who running from religious intolerance came to my country; and brought it with them ( go look into how and why Rhode island was formed ) :p

    simple reality is the history of how and why the unions were formed I am well aware of ( try "the Jungle" by upton stclair ) and history is not what this revolution is going to be all about, present circumstances is what Im talking about and in todays world, not 100 years ago but today, we're getting screwed. Hang the ******** high and let em swing for all to see is the solution, the gov. shysters and the corporate oligarchy which includes the union brass as well as the supreme court, they have all failed the public trust and sold out at every turn.

    clean slate is what is needed and the sooner the better

    they make ~1500 new laws every year and each creates a criminal out of an otherwise honest person
    screw that
    slash and burn all laws and allow only 1500
    better make em good ones cause thats all you get

    this gov has grown into a monster and no way to escape its clutches but to bring it down

    the revolution will not be televised

    yes a hundred years ago the unions were necessary to prevent run away corporate greed from working immigrants and the underprivileged to death but things are different today and living in the past is part of the problem that has led to the present situation

    maybe a few of those 1500 laws should encompass worker rights sufficiently to negate the need for unions in the future
    one can eliminate the tiered reserve system and place us back on the gold standard
    maybe another can eliminate tax down to something manageable ( its not like we are getting any of the services they are supposed to provide anyway )
    another few might cover wall streets corruption and provide a few nice stiff prison sentences for white collar crime (fat chance there eh)

    most of the libraries worth of laws are designed to assist some shyster screw the public anyway so get rid of them and start over

    I understand the distant history really really well
    its the present and the future that is the major concern at this point
     
  8. Marco1
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    Marco1 Senior Member

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/another-polar-rescue-must-send/story-e6frfhqf-1225856131380

     
  9. Marco1
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    Marco1 Senior Member

    Today is no different. Dissilussioned people make up religions and follow them with the same fervor fanaticism and intollerance once the exclusive realm of the exclusive brethren.

    Go figure!
     
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  10. TollyWally
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    TollyWally Senior Member

    When one's livelihood is at stake or perceived to be, violence is often lurking just below the surface. There are countless examples of criminal tactics used as strategy on both sides of modern labor history. For partisans on either side to not acknowlege that is blatant intellectual dishonesty. I do note with amusement that organized labor's rate of success in the 20th century increased roughly parallel with the infiltration of the mob and their access to union funds.

    Labor negotiations is often a high stakes application of raw power with long term often unintended consequences. The perils of killing the golden goose seem rather obvious to me but are often overlooked.

    Troy,
    I appreciated you taking the time a day or so back to share with me your views on the Tea Party movement. I disagree with many of your points, especially the lumping together of the old American Party platforms of the 1850's and the current Tea Party movement. A movement I see as trying to restore the constitutional constraints upon the federal government inherent in the 10th amendment and the equal protection under the law required by the 14th.

    I can syphathize with your defensiveness about California. Nobody likes seing their hometown dragged through the mud. But your native state does seem to be in a bad position. The cost and performance of your public sector
    does appear to have a bearing on the problem as a whole when viewed from the outside. I think your position here of comparing the SEIU tactics mentioned by Limbaugh and fight of coal miners in Colorado is going to be a difficult one to defend in a logical manner.
     
  11. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    The tune I hear a lot from people is, "well, unions did a lot of good back in the day. But nowadays we don't need them; they're obsolete." Baloney.

    For the record, I'm Area Chairman for my local of the Utility Workers of America. Why? Because a few years ago, my company celebrated the most profitable year in its 100+ year history by trying to do a slash and burn on our medical and retirement benefits, and hold us to pay raises that didn't even keep up with inflation.

    Look at the mine disaster that happened a couple of weeks ago in Virginia. Do you really think that it has no relation to the fact that Massey Energy Company has been working hard at union-busting since the 80's under Reagan, when doing so suddenly became the fashionable thing in industry? Incidentally, they've done it the old-fashioned way, with company goons and sympathetic state police. Try watching a documentary called The Mine War on Blackberry Creek, if you want to know more about it.

    Do you think Massey could have gamed the system by tying up safety enforcement penalties and fines in appeals for years instead of fixing the problems, if there had been a strong union in that mine? As a matter of fact, if there had been any union in that mine?

    Probably not. According to figures from the United Mine Workers of America, three out of ten coal miners belong to a union, but only one of of ten fatalities involve a union member. They're probably understating the facts, rather than exaggerating them.

    A report from the March 28, 2007, hearing on Protecting the Health and Safety of America's Mine Workers released by the House Committee on Education and Labor contains the following statistics for the five-year period of 2002-2006:

    Underground coal injuries: 19,282

    In union mines: 5,362 (or 27.8% of total)

    Underground coal fatalities: 109

    In union mines: 22 (or 20.2%)

    According to the United Mine Workers of America, in 2007-2009, there were 45 underground coal-mining fatalities. Six of these were in union mines. Thus, for the 15-year period, less than one-fifth of the fatalities occurred in union mines.

    Go ahead: try to convince me unions are irrelevant in today's world.
     
  12. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    Despite the fact that California gets a lot of press because its so large, its problems are hardly unique. There are states all over the country in financial trouble right now, and it doesn't have a thing to do with medical marijuana.

    If you're listening to Rush Limbaugh to learn about unions, you're in the wrong place. You're hardly getting a fair, complete or honest view of them, or of what they've been doing.

    And I'm still trying to figure out what medical marijuana and California's annual budget have to do with climate change--beyond the fact that a number of folks here who noisily oppose the very concept of AGW also seem to have strange and ignorant notions about the state I live in, and its people.

    I find it ridiculous that if I moved six miles east, I'd be in Arizona -- and the same idiots would have a whole different set of preconceived notions about me.
     
  13. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    The need for unions came about from lack of government regulations.
    I guess the business owners just had the money to bribe the polititians and the union used the tools it had
     
  14. TollyWally
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    TollyWally Senior Member

    Public Sector unions have been getting a lot of scrutiny lately both for the lavishness of their precariously funded pensions and high wage rates and their blatantly syncronized efforts to carry water for the current administration. They are the first line of shock troops against the political opponents of the Obama presidency.

    The thug tactics of the SEIU Limbaugh refers to that you dismiss as bs include the physical beating of a man at a Tea Party rally and calling him a ******. It's on tape. This was after the president of all of the people of the United States urged his supporters to "get in their faces" and "punch back harder". I just don't see the commonality between this and mining. Holding up the taxpayers for more gimme gimme just ain't the same thing as striking for safer working conditions.
     

  15. TollyWally
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    TollyWally Senior Member

    This isn't a thread about global warming any more really. It's just a spot on the net where people ***** back and forth about thier political views whether they admit that or not. I drop by every once in a while mostly to see if anything has changed.

    I think the medical dope thing was a way to frame California as a bastion of left wing ideology, which it is, and hold that left wing ideology responsible for her problems, which seems plausible. I doubt dope has much to do with why California can't pay it's bills.
     
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