stability with speed

I also have questions about that. Not that wind is free, but shouldn't wind be cheaper than huge engine on a very large boat?

 

OK, how about this. Sailboats have ballast. What if the larger, more powerful engine is positioned in a way that would serve as a ballast or partial ballast, therefore larger engine would not have negative weight affect on the sailing performance? Because Richard is right, modern sailboats have very weak engines for motorsailing. Although, diesel engines supposed to be very strong and last long time. One of my mercedes diesels never had any issues, strong as a tank.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091231/ap_on_bi_ge/us_warship_record

According to this link, rouge wave cracked steel hull on US Navy destroyer? I heard of rouge waves before, what is that? Like a tsunami? Squall? Any of experienced sailors know what that is? And what is the whole Bermuda triangle thing with ships disappearing? Maybe someone knows something ....

 

Go to the Bermuda Triangle and do some research nyalex.

If you're lucky, you may experience a few "rouge" waves too!

Then, let us know what you learned.

-Tom

 

First, those HUNDREDS of liters are telltales, marina drivel.
Hundred hp consume about 20 liters hr right? Thats 200 for 1000hp on duty.

My largest Yacht was 50 meters and had 3100 hp installed (on propulsion), to provide 17,4 kn at half load, calm waters, full throttle.

At 12 kn cruising only 700 of those horses were on duty! Thats 140 liter per hr! It was 160 Liter in reality, with a Genny running and stabilizers active. But not hundreds.

Second

The wind is for free, yes. The wind catcher costs money, a lot of money. And replacing the rig every 5 years or so, is´nt for free.
Then you have still a diesel in a sailboat (not serviced, not liked, but running at least 20% of your sailing time). These engines are replaced almost as regularely as the rig on a average passagemaking sailboat.
In the end, all old salts will tell you the same, leaving all the canvas crap at home saves money and makes faster, safer and more enjoyable passages.
It is no coincidence that we see this "Trawler" trend, especially amongst older couples with many miles sailing under the belt. They ALL confirm, a motoryacht is the cheaper vessel on passages.

Imagine

a 65´sailing boat, purchase price 3mio$, rig about 500.000$, engine 150hp. speed 8kn.

5 years sailing 20.000nm per annum is 100.000 miles. Time under sail = 80.000 ./. 5,6 = 14285 hrs. (70% of 8kn is 5,6kn). Time under motor = 20.000 ./. 6,4 = 3125 hrs. (80% of 8kn is 6,4kn) at a power setting of about 85%
Fuel consumption is about 30lt x 3000hrs = 90.000 liters! Liter 1,20€ is 108.000€ plus 80% of the rig = 400.000€
Total= 508.000€ in 5 years of circumnavigating for propulsion only.

Now a 65´motoryacht same purchase price but 2x250 hp. (the boat has a bit more living room but thats for free, the propulsion cost is about 400.000 cheaper.
100.000 miles at 11kn is sailing time= 100.000 ./. 8,8 kn (80% of 11kn) = 11363 hrs. at a power setting of only 40%
Fuel consumption is about 40lt x 11000hrs = 440.000 ltrs = 528.000€

We did not calculate that you have to run a genny on the sailing boat while the motoryacht can handle most of the el. load by alternators.

When you go much smaller the advantage is on the side of the sailor, when you go larger, on the motorboat side.

Regards
Richard

 

Yeah, I experienced a rouge wave in December 2004, Phuket, Thailand. I did survive that tsunami that killed what ... 230,000 and another 100,000 missing. I supposed to go out on a boat that morning, too. But I was up all night partying and went to sleep at 6 in the morning. When I woke up, Club Med along with everything else on shore was destroyed. It would be nice if somebody who actually knew something would post something with content.

 

What about the range, Richard? Can you cross Pacific on engines alone? Or you always have to stop somewhere to refuel?

 

You can cross the Pacific, Indian and Atlantic ocean in one go with the right designed boat and in good conditions. More sensible though is a range of 5000nm at about 80% of theoretical hull speed. There are several boats achieving this, but not many.
The longest common passage is about 3000nm cross the Pacific, means every boat with less than 3000nm + 15% is far away from being a passagemaker!
Well ALL "Trawlers" being sold as such are far away from being that.

My next boat is capable of refuelling just twice on a circumnavigation! And it will accept vegetable oil as fuel.

Regards
Richard

 

How would you achieve refueling just twice on a circumnaviation, if it's not a secret? I am starting to get the idea of my boat. Sailboat with strong engine, good fuel capacity, monohull, wood/epoxy or aluminum, 42 to 65 feet, custom made not in developing country. You have been a huge help Richard, thanks. I will continue further reseach. My naval architect from europe is asking me a lot of questions that I still cannot answer as to what I want exactly.

 

There are no secrets in boatbuilding, it is all well known. Just some people ignore what is well known.

Have a fast hull (longer is faster), build just half the possible accommodation in, (mother in law has to stay ashore), install tanks instead, have a perfect designed propulsion (big engine and a CPP).
Thats it.

 

Sorry to butt in here, but NYALEX you might buy a copy of Voyaging Under Power by Cap'n Robert P. Beebe; read chapters 3-7 particularly, and the remainder at your leisure and/or pleasure. This should give you a good idea of the requirements for ocean-going passage-making, and further explain the economics of diesel vs. wind power.

 

That is the right book to start with!
The contemporary look inside is here:
http://dashewoffshore.com/dashew228.asp

enjoy.........

 

Thanks, I will do that. I already bought a lot of books and dvds, internet research, etc. This forum been big help. So many people fly today, I thought I was the only one left who still loves sailing.

 

Yes, I looked at the link, thank you for that. Here's the thing, though, and I hope nobody takes it the wrong way. But it seems to me, and confirmed by people in the link, that in their younger days they sailed around the world in sailboats which are good. Then, as they got older, lazier, and more spoiled, it was more work than they were willing to do, and they switched to power yachts. I am not that lazy or old. I like working the sails and catching wind and I like the look of sailboats. Costs are not an issue for me, I wouldn't buy Benzes if I cared about saving money; I care about quality and more importantly, getting what I want. I guess I could go for power if it came with at least some sails .... and I know you can go to higher latitudes with metal sailboats. Based on many years of my sailing, sailboats glide, they are quiet, smooth, basically, perfect. Powerboats ... when they hit the waves, they are rough, bouncy, and can cause sea sickness in people, because instead of rolling with waves naturally as sailboat does, they punch and push through waves using engine power which creates an uncomfortable, choppy ride. And I sailed many sailboats, powerboats, and catamarans over many years.

 

Here's one thing I learned. Instead of airborne, I should have served in the Navy. That way I could have droppped depth charges on a submarine. That would create a few "rouge" waves too!

 

Well, Happy New Year to you too!