Rhino Marine being dropped

Alion software has decided to drop Rhino Marine and discontinue all support for it as of the end of 2010. Here is the relevant portion of their letter (the whole letter is attached):

"Regrettably, the review team has concluded that RhinoMarine is no longer a tool that fits into Alion’s future business plans. As such we have suspended all future sales and, as of 1 September 2009, will no longer provide maintenance and support services. However, to ensure that our valued RhinoMarine users continue to get the services you need, DRS Defense Solutions Advanced Technology Center (ATC), developers of Orca3D (www.orca3d.com), will be available to provide on-going RhinoMarine technical support for existing users through the end of 2010"

Many of us who use this program have had problems with the DRM "site license," which requires a recomputed key from Alion every time anything is changed in the running hardware . . . and sometimes even when nothing is changed. Which implies that any problem or hardware upgrade after support is suspended at the end of next year will render our copies unusable.

Hopefully, Alion will do the right thing and send out a means to re-generate these licenses as needed so that users can continue to use the software we paid for on the equipment of our choice. It is in Alion's best interest to do so, and immediately. Their future customers for FastShip or VisualSMP will have the example of customer support they set with Rhino Marine to consider before purchase, and it is clearly in the best interests of Alion for this image to be as favorable as possible. Leaving current customers with unusable software does not achieve this goal.

BillyDoc

 

More on Rhino Marine

The link that Alion provides in their letter goes nowhere (at least for me) but if you go to Rhino3d.com you can find another link to Orca3d: http://www.orca3d.com/rm/rmtransition.htm.

If you go to this link you will find that for a mere $695 dollars you can get their presumably equivalent, discounted for former Rhino Marine users, software.

So, as things now stand, if you want to keep the functionality you paid for (assuming the Orca3d software is equivalent to Rhino Marine) you will be forced to cough up an additional $695 because Alion will cease to support their "Digital Rights" method . . . which was always for their benefit only . . . thus rendering your legally purchased Rhino Marine software useless.

No doubt there is some clause in the EULA that legally permits this shoddy behavior, but shoddy it remains.

I encourage all Rhino Marine users to contact Alion (tel: 703.418.0100 fax: 703.933.6774) and complain loudly about this issue! And in the meantime, I encourage everyone who is considering the purchase of Alion's other products, FastShip and VisualSMP to hold off on those purchases until this issue is satisfactorily resolved.

Finally, if Alion would explain their position unequivocally in these pages that explanation would be most welcome.

BillyDoc

 

We migrated from Rhinomarine to Orca3D when the Rhinomarine developers left Alion for DRS and formed Orca3D. Orca3D runs almost exactly the same as Rhinomarine, and it has some enhanced features as well. Since it was the Orca3D team who developed Rhinomarine they should be able to handle any technical questions.

Site licensing has been a problem with Rhinomarine. Sorry they won't be able to provide support.

 

Thanks for your comments, Joe. It's good to know that Orca3D is as good or better than Rhino Marine . . . which I actually like a lot.

But it's not Alion's lack of support that I'm irritated about. All I want from Alion is the ability to keep using Rhino Marine as I have been, and for which I paid, and to be able to maintain my computer and upgrade it as I wish WITHOUT completely losing Rhino Marine functionality because of their damn DRM software, which always benefited only Alion and was always nothing but an irritation to me.

Alion has stated that they will no longer be marketing Rhino Marine, so they lose nothing by simply providing a "universal" key for it to their user base in one form or another. That ends the problem and maintains customer good will, which does have monetary value in relation to their other products, FastShip and Visual SMP. Right now, I'm so mad at Alion for what feels exactly like the theft of my property that I will never do business with them again if they persist in leaving things like this. I am not exactly favorably inclined toward Orca3D either, as they seem to be poised to benefit nicely from this, at my expense.

We'll see what Alion actually does soon enough, though. I still can't really believe they would do something this irritating to their customer base. There has to be a mistake somewhere, it's just too utterly stupid. Is anyone at Alion reading this thread? If you are, please jump in here and explain what is actually happening!

BillyDoc

 

BillyDoc,
You bring up some valid points here, and I'd like to discuss it further with you if you have a few minutes. I won't comment publicly on Alion's actions, so would you mind emailing me at "rhinomarine at orca3d dot com"? I think I could shed some light on what's been happening, and hopefully assuage your fears that you won't be able to continue to use RhinoMarine. Thanks.

 

Good morning Bruce,

As of the time of this message, over 300 of my friends here on Boat Design have also expressed an interest in this issue (judged by the number of viewings) and would, no doubt also be very glad to hear that they may be able to continue using RhinoMarine past the "support" date. This being the case, and given the public nature of my complaint on this forum, I feel that any such private communication would be inappropriate.

I understand that you may well be in an awkward position here, and deeply appreciate your offer of assistance. But, if you can, let's keep this issue in public view and hopefully someone from Alion will eventually step forward and we will come to a satisfactory resolution for all concerned.

Thanks,

BillyDoc

 

Thanks for the quick reply. I understand that there is a lot of interest in this subject, but as you say, I'm in an awkward position, especially since our company's policy does not allow employees to post messages in forums on the company's behalf. What I'd like to do is discuss the subject with you, give you our view of things, listen to and discuss your suggestions, and then post an "official" view of things (with the company's position). If you can email me I'd be happy to call you.

 

Hi Bruce,

I'm sorry, but I still think that such private communication is inappropriate. The issue is extremely simple in any case: Will Alion's RhinoMarine customers continue to be able to use the software we purchased past the "support cutoff date?" If the answer is "yes!" that would mean that Alion has recognized the position of their customers and, in our view, "done the right thing," thus maintaining good will and possibly new sales. The fact that, based on their statement, this would cost them nothing at all has not been lost on those customers. If the answer is, however, "no," for whatever reason, then obviously the "good will" effect may prove somewhat elusive.

Think how you would feel if you purchased a nice new car, but a few years after the purchase the company that sold you the car decided it didn't want to be bothered with your particular line of cars any more and remotely disabled them all beyond repair. Isn't this a fair analogy to the present situation? At least in it's essentials?

BillyDoc

 

Hi BillyDoc,

I understand your reason for keeping this in the public light, however maybe Bruce has a solution to keeping your and other Rhinomarine licenses working. It may be worth a discussion with him. I have dealt with Bruce in the past and know him to be a straight shooter.

Joe

 

Hi Joe,

Actually, I strongly dislike being in a position where I can't just discuss things and work them out personally. And especially in this case where I feel you are correct, and Bruce is, as you say, a "straight shooter." I feel like I'm being impolite, at the very least . . . and I apologize to Bruce for this. But I don't want to compromise my own position with private communications.

Eventually, perhaps, someone from Alion will venture a post here. Or not. I would think it would be in their best interest to address this issue as soon as possible, though. So, we wait.

BillyDoc

 

I'm sorry that you're unwilling to speak to me directly. Perhaps you'll be at IBEX and we can talk there. I don't think it's at all inappropriate for you, as a software user, and me, as a software supplier, to have a discussion. Further, in my limited experience with forums, especially in a situation like this where emotions are running strongly, the discussion is rarely, if ever, productive. Things are easily misunderstood or taken out of context, and end up fanning the flames rather than extinguishing them. That said, I'd like to offer another perspective for the benefit of all, in the hope that it will be constructive.

Let me start by saying that all of my comments are my comments, and in no way represent the official views of DRS.

After we were told that RhinoMarine was being discontinued and asked if people who were interested in RhinoMarine could be pointed to Orca3D, we responded that perhaps we should go a step further. We thought if people were simply told to buy Orca3D, we might get a few customers that switched, but we wouldn't get any happy customers. Who wants to feel like they have a gun to their head? By volunteering to provide technical support and Site Keys to RhinoMarine users, we feel like we have provided a resource for the RhinoMarine community to continue to use the software that they have purchased, without interruption (and when I say volunteer, I mean it; I am spending a not inconsequential amount of my time providing RhinoMarine support, and receiving nothing directly for it).

Does this potentially benefit Orca3D? Of course, having one less competitor could benefit us. But we don't expect RhinoMarine users to switch to Orca3D in droves. We have to earn it by providing value in terms of the quality and capability of our software, and our technical support. While Orca3d appears similar in terms of features, you'd find that there are a number of areas where we have gone further with it, and we're continuing to actively develop it. And just as importantly, I think you'd find that our technical support is consistently very responsive. But even all of that won't justify the expense of switching to Orca3D (even at a 50% discount) if RhinoMarine does everything that you need it to.

We suggested that we be available to provide technical support and allowed to provide replacement Site Keys to RhinoMarine users for some period of time, so that they would not be left hanging. This is with the hope that eventually, when the time comes to upgrade, the customers will give our product a fair shake. Self serving? I don't think so; it's simply business, and I believe a win-win situation. We provide customers with good products and service, and they (hopefully) eventually make the decision to give us their business. In this case, we're putting our money (time) where our mouth is, and providing the service first, in hopes of getting the business later.

With almost all of the software that we all use in our daily work, there is an effective lifespan. While you're absolutely correct that when one purchases a license to a piece of software it is usually perpetual, in reality most people don't expect to use it forever. How long is it really used, before an operating system upgrade, or perhaps in this case a Rhino upgrade, make it time to upgrade a piece of software? One year? Two years? Three? Our thinking was that by the end of 2010, RhinoMarine users would be ready to upgrade for one reason or another; Windows 7, Vista 64-bit, Rhino 5, etc. So they would likely be facing an upgrade payment even if RhinoMarine continued as a product. Since it is not, we're trying to position Orca3D as a logical alternative. Maybe the end of 2010 is not the right date; perhaps it should be 2011, or perhaps there shouldn't be an expiration date. As we approach the end of next year, if we're still receiving requests for replacement Site Keys, there's no reason why we couldn't re-evaluate and ask Alion to agree to allow us to continue to provide them.

Now, DRM. No arguments, it is a pain in the neck. Not only as a software user, but as a software developer. As a developer, it's very expensive, and adds no value to the product. In fact, it takes away value, since time spent implementing and supporting it take away from time that could be spent adding extra functionality. But how many commercial software packages, especially in small, vertical markets like this one, don't have DRM? (If they don't, then they're usually supported by some other model such as advertising.) The sad fact is that without it, piracy will quickly kill commercial software, and then when you, as a user, need to ask for technical support or want new features, there won't be anyone there to answer the phone. You, as a professional designer, face the same issue. If you sell a design to a builder, and then he posts those plans on the internet, how many more times do you think you'll be able to sell those plans? DRM is a constant topic of conversation among our developers; we are always looking for a model that has less impact on both our customers and us.

Some DRM is better and less intrusive than others. We feel that the DRM in Orca3D is a big step forward. The License Code is permanent, and can be re-used if your computer crashes, for example. And an Orca3D license will survive the re-formatting of a hard disk, so it's much less likely to be accidentally lost.

I hope this perspective is helpful. It's pointless for me to discuss whether Alion's decision was right or wrong. I can only tell you that in my opinion going forward, RhinoMarine users are no worse off than they were a month ago. They have a consistent, responsive source of true technical support from naval architects who are also Rhino plug-in developers, and replacement Site Keys when needed. Please don't get caught up in the 2010 date; that was chosen with the guess that by then everyone would have moved on for one reason or another. We'll have to see how things go; if we're wrong, it is certainly not our intent (or in our interest) to leave people hanging. In the meantime, we'll keep trying to earn your business.

 

Hi Bruce,

Thank you for your extremely informative response. I am delighted to see that the people at Orca3D appear to be the "good guys" in this mess. I think that your business plan is both honorable and probably effective. It appears, however, that had you not volunteered to provide site keys as needed we would have all been left "dead in the water" by Alion.

And you are right to note that software becomes dated, and we like the "latest and greatest" when possible. I'm included, but it's easy for me because I use Linux for almost everything. But, I'm still using an old copy of Windows 2000 pro for Rhino and RhinoMarine . . . which works very well on an isolated machine with an Internet "firewall" consisting of a non-existent Internet connection. I also have two machines at my laboratory running DR-DOS to control critical processes. DR-DOS is lightning fast and completely reliable on a modern machine. So, my idea of a software lifespan might be a little different from yours.

I have to disagree with you about RhinoMarine users being "no worse off than a month ago" however. If Alion has truly abandoned us, as it appears, we are now completely dependent upon the good graces of Orca3D for support and site licenses, and that over what must necessarily be a finite time period. Moreover, the site licenses part of that is a complete waste of time for both you as the provider and me as a customer as it is completely unnecessary. Alion could easily provide a "universal" key, or some such as appropriate. They are apparently out of this particular business, after all. Yet, they do not. I wonder if they use the same DRM approach with FastShip or VisualSMP? That would be reason enough to not buy it for me! And their history here would not serve to change that view in a positive direction, thus far.

Alion, your continued silence is making a great noise!

BillyDoc

 

BillyDoc,

Thanks for your response. The only other comment that I would make is that the people that I dealt with at Alion had a genuine desire not to leave customers "dead in the water" (notwithstanding the corporate decision), and were more than helpful in getting us up to speed to be able to provide Site Keys.

If you (or anyone else) would like to discuss this further, please send an email to my attention at rhinomarine at orca3d dot com.

Best regards,
Bruce

 

Well done, assuming that was a private effort! Have some reputation points!

Richard

 

US court says software is owned, not licensed

US court says software is owned, not licensed

OUT-LAW News, 05/10/2009

http://www.out-law.com/default.aspx?page=10421

"Software company Autodesk has failed in its bid to prevent the second-hand sale of its software. In a long-running legal battle it has not been able to convince a court that its software is merely licensed and not sold.

Like many software publishers Autodesk claims that it sells only licences to use its software and that those who pay for it do not necessarily have the right to sell it on. It sued Timothy Vernor, who was selling legitimate copies of Autodesk software on eBay, for copyright infringement.

The US District Court for the Western District of Washington has backed Vernor, though, in his claim that he owned the software and had the right to sell it on."

So, following this logic and the apparent fact that Alion is willfully and intentionally setting the stage for the termination of RhinoMarine software their customers have legitimately purchased, it seems to me that a case can be made that Alion is stealing customer property. Moreover, given that there are probably quite a few of those customers this seems like it could be a situation where a class-action suit is appropriate. There are lawyers in my town who drool over just this sort of opportunity. This could get interesting!

BillyDoc