My objections to Zero's new Health care plan.

But I postulate the original intended meanings have been subverted by legalistic interpretations in an attempt "to clarify" some matter.... "legal battle" regularly erupts over a "constitutional definition" and there is great reluctance to change even one letter - so vast volumes of legal argument is dedicated to defining certain phrases...

To return to the orignial question of the thread - from my reading the "health" bill has been attacked and filled with other things and terms / conditions that it should NOT be passed, besides you (USA) is INSOLVENT, (here is one estimate http://www.usdebtclock.org/ ) so it is a luxury you cannot afford...

 

I had to laugh at myself. I'm starting to find things to agree with Wardd.

America is a Capitalist Republic. We are supposedly following the Rule of law.
We see the Rule of force after we have been convicted by a jury of our peers.

I see this Health initiative as the first step in converting the Capitalistic Republic to the Socialistic Welfare state of America, where the Government has every U.S. Citizen beholden and dependent on the U.S. Government.

The U.S. Government has to take some steps to make sure a small well organized militia don't take back the Capitalistic Republic. You better not let them know where you are hiding those guns.

 

Dont worry about hard feelings with me wally I can talk to you all day.

Your right I am not American, if you mean not born there. But Ille tell yer America is in my face every day. Iether in the news for a war that affects me to financial stupidity which affects me to American hating terrorists which affect me, very much, airport security and opening bank accounts is ridiculous.

I have not, nor do I intend to tell you what to do , my conversation on your constitution was my opinion of a document written 300 years ago. This document is constantly reviewed and as you say re interpreted. It was my suggestion that you rewrite it. Why this meets such an uproar is interesting.

I walk 100yds down the road on a tropical island west of Malaysia with monkeys and snakes and I pass Mc Donalds ,Kentucky, kenny Rodgers etc etc and some more American fast food crap.

America was born of greed, greed of Europeans. King George did not want US. But Europeans integrated into the continent and for reasons of greed only systematically tried to take all land and annihilate the indigenous American. Treating them as slaves and inferior,--incredible!!

It was a lawless country needing self protection, greed went unchecked and biggest guns talked.

From my point of view that attitude has not changed. I know Americans and as I see it are angry arrogant insistence on being right.

I have tried, but I have little time for most of them.


America has been quick in its development, a mere 400 years or so. It has made all that was good, biggest buildings , biggest cars, biggest frigdes, with a high quality of life admired by others recovering from a world war that you entered just-- just-- before you had to.
But along with your claim of single handed Victory and of world superiority developed shocking street violence, prohibition, gangs, murder, vulgarity, and drug related crime, and schools that just don't--cant educate? ---oh and more wars that seemed necessary

America seemed to have all that was good yet all that was bad and was feared for both reason especially the muslims who feared the inevitable export of all that is bad. They did'nt have the ability to cope with the crime and violence that comes with the freedom.

As do you today struggle with almost out of control imprisonment, the highest in the world.

If America was'nt there ? difficult to say. It could be said that we would not be in the mess we are now?

America will die from the same reason of its birth. Greed

America to me at the moment seems like a closing down sale in a supermarket with people running around looting and fighting each other for whats left.

What ever happens in the next few years you inclusion in the history books will be assured for many reasons, annihilation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki for one, killing millions of fellow humans in a second.

 

Frosty your partly correct about your fire sale comment.
The gold rush is on, but it's been on for a long long time.

When the first French Skinny tired bicycles first showed up I was pretty headstrong about my old fat tired Schwinn until I rode one of the French bikes. I liked it.
Then the Jap Motorcycles, the Jap cars, the Mexican trinkets....crap started coming in from everywhere. I discovered Coffee came from Juan Corona some where in another country.

I happened to be on a military base with a good Library in a nearby city so I began to research, to find out about how all this fits into Capitalism.

Boy was I shocked to find out the Americans had been selling Generators to Mitsubishi right up till the Pearl Harbor bombing. I think it was Delco, but it don't matter, we also sold them Rubber for tires, because at the time a lot of the Rubber plantations were in American hands. Other things as well.

The gold rush was on, starting with Gen. MacArthur trying to help Japan out of the destitution of WWII.
Some American went to Japan and found out he could buy lo and sell hi.
He could have it made in Japan and sell it in America.
Not to mention Truman trying to help Europe rebuild.
And when the Iron curtain came down another gold rush. Remember all those gaudy ugly dolls and things that came out of Russia after the Wall was knocked down?

We used to make what we sold, now the Orient makes what we sell.
Now America is a Service and Sales economy.
Fewer jobs for White Americans. However our White work force is quickly being replaced by a Brown work force.
Our white population is declining ( Herb Meyer's letter on Demographics) while the Brown skinned population is increasing.
Our Boomers are retiring and needing more medical help than ever because of the excess of drugs involved in their stupid protest moments and some other stupid life choices.
The Greatest generation is hardly consuming more than aspirin, compared to the druggies of the Boomer generation.
The Greatest Generation hardly ever asked for more that what they could afford.
The Boomers are whining and sniveling from birth about what the Government owes them.

The big question is where's the money going to come from?

If our work force is reduced to selling offshore goods to people, where do the buyers get the money to pay?
We have fewer jobs, fewer buyers....where?

What nobody seems to care about is what's going to happen to the underachievers we are pumping out of High schools. There were jobs for uneducated kids in our past. The brown skinned immigrants who breed like lice are getting all those labor jobs.

It don't look good for us, do it?

Two things are going to happen simultaneously. All the Trillions Obama spent, and all the jobs nobody has any longer are going to meet in the middle. When one hand is asking for taxes to pay off the Trillions, and the other hand is wondering where his work went because he cannot pay the taxes with no work.
Both entities are going to ask for help!

There is no other America to bail us out.

 

Did I miss out on something? my only smoking drug was American "Marlborough" - Thanks USA for that addiction which I stopped "cold turkey about 15 years ago... Other drugs - never even did a "Clinton" - no interest... but enjoyed alcohol but never got disorderly... Never went to a "rock concert" or any other loud venue... sewed lots of seeds, ate lots of good food... (hate usanian type convenience foods - too sweet)

Are you talking of usanian baby-boomers? here in Oz, they are starting to spend their childrens' inheritance, and referred to as the "grey" or "nomad army" as they travel towards the tropical regions in winter and migrate to the cooler regions in Summer....

thudpucker, the "sell yourself into slavery" option may be available to some?

 

LOL, "the Grey" or the "Nomad Army"
In Alaska we referred to your Nomad Army as the "Snow birds" that fly south for the winter and return northward for the summer. I did that too.

I didn't understand your question; "the "sell yourself into slavery" option may be available to some?"
I'm afraid my OZ is not as good as it could be

We have a lot of people who cruised through life without ever bothering to prepare for retirement. And of course we have a lot now, that relied solely on their Job for a retirement, but lost that when the job dried up.
Those who didn't put anything aside, or wound up with out any assets, (never had it or lost it all) would gladly sell their children into slavery so they might have the Government handle their Medical problems.

That's the attitude difference I mentioned between the "Greatest Generation" and the ''Baby Boomers".

As a child I was never allowed to play sports. The folks didn't have the money to support it, nor did they have any medical insurance. They couldn't afford it, so we didn't have it. That is the kind of sturdy stock that made America the strong country it is or maybe Was.

Now the current brainwashed, frightened, spoiled and very ignorant want it, at any price, not ever thinking what the real price could be!

 

Sorry thudpucker, I was having a bit of a "below the belt" dig at some of the "loud mouth deniers" who seem incapable of seeing the dire situation that confronts so many in USA because of the profligate and callous manipulation and theft operating in the bourse and major "merchant" banks...( - have a look at http://www.usdebtclock.org/ ) -

The global, and in particular USA, economic situation is so distressing that that could be the only resolution for some, being an extreme case, which I hope and pray does not befall anyone, but that does not diminish the seriousness of the situation as presented by such sources inside USA... I was thinking of a scene where the "patriarch" submits himself to tenured employment in order to settle a major debt, or feed the family...

Those figures (in the us National Debt clock) seem to be reasonably accurate as, from other sources, "estimated currency and credit derivatives" is on the mark... "The US unfunded liabilities", in my reckoning amount to 60 to 72 trillion.... "US gross domestic product" is about right but I have not done a check or tested past year results... "US debt held by foreign countries" could be quite low (depending on the definition and what it includes)...

Yes I also know how to survive, as my mother was what the demographers call "the frugals" (parents of and the early baby-boomers) - those who knew the deprivations of the depression years, I still felt them in the initial 10 or so years of my life remembering "dripping toast" as butter was not available and similar making do with what one had.... Luckily we had a fairly large block and my uncle was instrumental in setting up our tennis court (no fences - but the levelling, and "borrowing runners of the good grass" from the edges of some commercial lawn-tennis courts - I continued with that project)

I am not familiar with the term, "Greatest Generation"? is that a subset of "baby-boomers"? - - - Our family doctor (when I was a child) has been known to accept eggs, produce in lieu of cash payment... - - - Judging by the current economic figures, I sadly suggest that USA "Was", - - is not far off the mark....

 

It is a very good point. Very true.

 

You knew them as "the Frugals" Mas, you mother was one of them. The "Greatest Generation" are the ones who came together to make WWII a win for global freedom.
Freedom of choice that is. Some didn't take that choice.

That site put's up some appalling numbers. I see my Pvt. Debt is only $23,000.
I haven't had any private debt in years. Many others have not for some other reasons, cant get a loan, prisoners, children, rest home denizens, illegals etc.
So somebody is really in Deep eh?

IMHO, Apathy is why America is in so much financial trouble.
Americans dont seem to care that our own elected members are the sort we should have put in jail when they were caught or exposed in wrong doing.

So we have those representatives, continue spending our money with out asking us.
Why would they bother to ask?
Americans just don't seem to care enough to do anything about the problems except gripe.

Obama successfully made a 'Straw man' out of the 'Filthy Rich' to get votes.
The un-thinking nation of Sheep, not realizing the Bankers, Exec's etc got those huge sums because they promised results, worked 24/7 and were pretty successful for the most part.
This is a Capitalistic Republic. If you ask for it and get it, good for you! That don't make you a bad guy!
The Board that gave it up are really the Bad buys. The apathetic members of the Investor's etc are the really apathetic bad guys.
If you don't pay attention, you just wont know till it's too late.
Apathy is the same thing as; "Oh well, I guess what they are doing is OK!"

Along comes a Pied Piper saying; "Change" and the Apathetic Sheep just get in line.....wearing signs on their backs reading; "Follow me to Slavery"

 

GLADNEY THE UNINSURED ACTIVIST.... Over the last few days, a conservative activist in St. Louis named Kenneth Gladney seems to have become something of a cause celebre in far-right circles. Depending on which version of events you choose to believe, Gladney either initiated or was involved in a scuffle at a town-hall event late last week.

At least one prominent conservative blogger said Gladney was "brutally attacked" by SEIU members outside the event. After watching the video, there's ample reason for skepticism. Gladney was, in fact, pulled to the ground during the fracas, but he seemed to bounce back up quickly, and is seen walking around soon after without any obvious injuries. His attorney has argued that Gladney was beaten during the fight, but there's nothing in the clip to support that.

Gladney later went to the hospital, claiming to have sustained injuries to his "knee, back, elbow, shoulder and face."

Yesterday, about 200 conservative activists held a protest outside the SEIU office in St. Louis. Gladney was there -- bandaged and in a wheelchair -- as a featured guest. Some of the activists held signs that read, "Don't Tread on Kenny." Reader R.D. alerted me to this tidbit in the local news account of the protest:

Gladney did not address Saturday's crowd of about 200 people. His attorney, David Brown, however, read a prepared statement Gladney wrote. "A few nights ago there was an assault on my liberty, and on yours, too." Brown read. "This should never happen in this country."

Supporters cheered. Brown finished by telling the crowd that Gladney is accepting donations toward his medical expenses. Gladney told reporters he was recently laid off and has no health insurance. [emphasis added]

Wait, the conservative opponent of health care reform, fighting (literally) to defeat a plan that would bring coverage to those who lose their jobs, lost his coverage because he got laid off?

I'm not in a position to say whether Gladney sustained genuine injuries or whether he's exaggerating for 15 minutes of Fox News fame and a lucrative out-of-court settlement.

Either way, the new right-wing cause celebre needs to take up a collection to pay for his medical bills because he doesn't have health insurance. It's a fascinating sign of the times.

 

Wardd,
Nice cut and paste.

Are you bothered by the filmed attack on a fellow American by union members at a public political function?

Do you think there might be a link between Obama's published remarks such as the request "to get in their face" or "bring a gun to a knife fight" and the violence towards Americans who question the wisdom and merits of the Obama plan?

 

it was a political function open to all even union members and who attacked who is open to debate but he did get up and walk away so the wheelchair is nice touch

no, i just thought the hypocrisy on his part interesting , protesting against healthcare that would have covered him and then begging for money to cover his medical expenses

 

All I can say is "This is your Life".... and it does not get any better - it gets WORSE.... I have to agree with thudpucker's above post... We sing a song in church "Jusus Reigns", and singing it I have been reminded in the case of USA "Apathy Reigns", and nary a sign of Jesus anywhere...

 

Wardd,

LOL, have you watched the clip? After doing so it seems hard to find it a debatable event.
No one has said that the meeting was closed to Union members.

Have you an opinion regarding Obama's remarks and the violence directed towards people who have differing political views?

It is not hypocrisy to be uninsured and against government controlled healthcare. Begging is a pretty far stretch. You are basically denigrating the victim for political gain.

Mas,
We most definitely are not suffering from apathy regarding the healthcare issue. Our governments reckless financial habits more so. I would point out that there has always been a sizable minority who disapprove. We are hampered in that cause by the strategic wealth redistribution tactics of the left wing . The building of diverse coalitions feeding off the public trough was one of FDR's legacies to the detriment of out nation.

 

I have no doubt many are rallying to encourage their elected members reject this UNREAD bill if only for 2 main reasons.....
* 1 - USA is INSOLVENT and the Govt will not be able to pay... - and
* 2 - Contained therein are some very (draconian) nasty laws...

So why all this "begging-socialist / democrat / republican / thieving-capitalist" crap, it is surely a common cause for ALL usanians - If you go rabid on denouncing the "left" or the "right", you effectively piss on half your "gunpowder"...