Concrete submarine

I find the "change the world through concrete submarine yachting" perspective just a bit odd.

Why would one believe that the platform would have any special bearing on how folks live on boats- sub or otherwise. (let alone the single attribute of hull material)

If you will transpose all these thoughts to say a trimaran... suddenly some tri enthusiast is saying that ocean colonization can finally be realized.. just because of tri's?
Further this tri guy is saying that finally the advent of concrete hulls in tri's makes it all possible...

If anything a sub seems to be the least likely platform to increase yachting.

Who cares what the hull is made of.. do you want to go drift cruising in a sub?

Do you want to deal with the numerous problems with the submarine which will make cruising difficult or impossible in many areas and simply a nuisance in all others?

 

About the US.

I once bought a Speed boat at Government Auction. The boat was a very fast boat that was obviously used for drug smuggling. I spent 6 months fixing boat and once I got out the Coast Guard would stop me on entrances to intercoastal every single time. One time they destroyed my floor looking for stuff. After that I went and had a meeting with division chief. He told me that my boat was on a watch list. I explain who I was, gave him all my information and they left me alone. So do you think a submersible whatever is going to just sail around the 7 seas without not getting stopped by every patrol boat possible. Make sure you have lots of inspection hatches.

Now about anchoring somewhere, there are many beautiful places to anchor, but the local governments have all enact laws prevent you from being in their jurisdiction for more than 7 days typically and they tell you where to anchor. So on top of Coast Guard you have local police telling you where to park or not and for how long.

Speaking of waste disposal, I hope your sub is equip with a bucket. That is still the only legal way to dump...Waste from a boat within 12 miles of shore.

On idea of submerging and living underwater, Well you better have some kind of anchors.. You just can't float around too many underwater currents that could take you somewhere on expected will you sleep. If you are thinking of resting on bottom. You have to do it deep enough as to not be effected by surf or tidal action, say for 100 feet. Also you have to do it outside jurisdiction of law environmental law. If they catch you disturbing the Sea grass, rock shrimp or coral, they will make you broke real fast. There are many areas that you are not even allowed to snorkel. No kidding...

Welcome to the 1st, moderm world

 

Floating life – style is accepted and quite popular in the Netherlands. Houseboats are everywhere, about 2400 in Amsterdam alone. .

Few links:
http://www.wwp-diemen.nl/houseboats/
http://www.wonenopwater.nu/
http://www.waterwonen.nl/

 

To Bntil, I may be missing your point. Aren't there people living aboard Tri's? If they want to colonize, who is stopping them? Increasing your yachting has many aspects, especially for someone who is 24/7 like myself. Living, traveling.
The point here is that the medium is new and has many possibilities. No pun, but platforms for the platform, as in a deck ideas. To mypauphin, regarding your speedboat. You were able to retain your civil rights by clearing up your situation.

 

Exactly my point. Everywhere it can be done - it *is* being done, and in a lot more appealing environment than a concrete igloo.

And no, houseboats arn't everywhere!!! Only where they have a permit to be. They pay rates and taxes, and heaven help you if you try to moor in an unauthorised area.

Can you tell me what the cost of a mooring in the Netherlands, Thames or other large population centre is?

I bet the cost of the lease, purchase from the previous owner - is no way a "cents in the dollar" exercise.

 

Water real estate is very expensive- on the water or near the shore. Anyone gazing out on a peaceful bay near any urban center is in for a rude awakening if you think you can live on the cheap out there.

Back to concrete hulls-

I believe that this focus on the hull material is misplaced.

All of the attendant issues with fit out and use are present in any hull form regardless of what hull material used.

Cheap is the driver here..? A sub for the masses?

Do the masses want submarines?

 

ASub for the Masses.

If my interest is any indicator, I am sure that there are others who have thought about owning a sub at some point. An inexpensive, not cheap, way of owning one is a possibility with a concrete pressure hull, making this come true. This is an opportunity to bring the concept to the, Masses, if you like. Anyone interested in a sub, in the past, has had to either look at a surplus sub, or pay high dollar amounts to get what they have in mind.This may no longr be the case.
What is wrong with a new concept that can cater to what some have in mind? What I want has been clear, a live aboard, green to coin a PC phrase, submarine. I want the living area, including a possible floating dock etc left up to me. I also want the means of choosing propulsion methods up to me.
The control mechanisms, as with safety, I will leave to the professionals to a major extent, I will trust that Wil, and I have no reason to doubt him, has done his part in producing what he has promised. A safe seaworthy hull that has been tested to the specification he has claimed. No need for a civilian like me to reinvent the wheel. If I can have the safety features worked out ahead of me, I can concentrate on the design layout to complete as I desire.
There are floating dock ideas at the mooring, new technologies in regenerative methods and all kinds of ways for me to enjoy my habitat. I have all of that now, with only the only exception being able to submerge when necessary to avoid bad weather, and the opportunity to see the sights below.
These are all areas where I can have control. Wilth a safe hull, completed before hand, I can spend more time on this without having to shell out a few hundrerd grand. I see Wil as the expert to bring me the hull, with limitations I can learn and live with.
One way or another, I want to play this out and see if the the floating and traveling habitat can be made a reality. As a consumer, and not a helping hand to get the concept to America. I am working out, with Wil, as to the cost of getting it going. I am staying with his market plan and taking one step at a time. I believe that the timetable that he has explained in detail, haves only been hampered in areas beyond his control.. Do I have doubts as to a smooth completion from start-up to delivery?, of course, but I am willing to give it a go.
There may have been confusion as to my association with Wil. I am not a paid consultant, salesman or any other entity. What I am, is a link from his current location the the US and primarily in California, where a laison person is an added benefit. I am first a buyer, who sees the possibility of making a permanent market in my area. I want this to be a success, and I want to be a part of the company as it grows.

 

Well, yes, basically it is so, but, Dutch are quite unique in many things, certainly so in “floating life style".

First of all, I think there are more house boats and ships for permanent living in The Netherlands then in the rest of the “1st world” combined. We have huge expanses of protected water ways that makes it possible. There is an enormous variety of living - on – the - water - solutions for every pocket. You can find everything from barely floating ancient derelicts to luxury floating villas and yachts and everything in between.

There is a trend to more regulations in recent years, and prices rised explosively, to the levels of “normal” houses in the same area. Still, there are quite a few places where people live more or less “illegally” or semi – legally with corresponding low living costs. Authorities in many instances tolerate it for quite a long time and in accordance with Dutch social system usually find a compromise – if they don’t want you in one place, they usually suggest other location.

One interesting sub – group in Dutch “floating community” are people around traditional sailing and motor ships fleet. Many of these ships are about hundred years old and many qualify for the status of national monument. If that’s the case, they can even get subsidy for maintenance costs and are actually encouraged by city – authorities to come and stay for free or for low cost, often on the very attractive locations in the heart of historic cities.

 

First of all, many thanks for all the contributors to this thread. I love a great debate, and this has been a great one I think. Lets put our hands together for Will and Steveall for putting up with the hassle and haggle. In the spirit of debate, can I put some further points "on the board"., with a big smile.

The question is "why"?. That sub is not easy to see out of for gazing at coral reefs (has it even got downward pointing ports ?) , it has no deck space to lounge around on (just sliding off on wet slippery nights) . Sure, you can submerge in rough weather, unable to see anything in the dark stormy water at least 50ft below to avoid the waves. What fun, sitting in a darkened concrete shell, hoping no one runs over the snorkel, hoping the batteries will hold out.

Ask any old submariner (except the ones that drive the wide view coral sightseeing subs) what they thought of the 'experience'. Or just look back at previous posts for some pithy comments.

Just an interesting question, Stevall - have you had any 'blue water' experience ?

There is no such thing as a 'green' submarine. You cant use the wind for sails, you cant mount solar panels for power. You might be able to make cheap diesal for another few years if you find a source of old vegetable oil who hasnt signed up with another re-cycling firm yet!. Sail boats are about as 'green' as you will get for an alternate lifestyle.

Huh ???? - you think it will cost how much? $300 euros per tonne, 200 tonne
is around eu$60,000. Double that for the inside fittings as any yacht builder will tell you (add a third again for subnarine type fittings) This aint gunna be no cheap living mate.

There has not been one factor "out of his control" that wasnt predicted on these forums 12 months ago. You itemise the 'factors', and I will hunt out the predictions for you.
There are still about a dozen more predictions for "out of his control" still to be encountered - and you have not twigged to any of them.

You are a self confessed "hoping to be paid" consultant and salesperson, and also a "wanna be" buyer if you expect to get out of this exercise under $200,000. What company is this you are talking about - you havn't mentioned any 'company' - are you an employee, a shareholder ?

What I am interested in is why this sub is coming to the US, and we dont hear anything from the 'client' that Will was buildng the sub for. What is happening there?

 

good debate

Watson,
I love a good debate, as do you. I think I can see beyond what others may see as just antagonist argument. I do have blue water sail experience. I am trying to write my travels in travepod.com. There are quite a few. Sailing to the tip of Baja on my first boat, a 26 foot Ranger. A trip on an Albacore boat enroute to Midway. The trip really turned interesting when the Captain was offloaded to a Panamanian cargo ship with what we thought was appendicitis. This left me in control, mid way between here and Hawaii, with only a 19 year old kid from NOAA who was along to measure the fish. Oh, also a parrot. I had to learn quickly the ability to control the boat, which I had no experience. It was interesting to say the least. Not boating related, but my other travels include a train ride to Turkey and making the way back using planes, trains and, automobiles
This is just fun stuff I have done after my tenure as a police officer, and I really don't go much into detail unless pushed, as some of the things I saw and did even sound like fiction to me sometimes.
Unrelated but other things have interested me and I have tried to pursue them. I have been a licensed falconer since I was 15 and I have gotten to work with many species that were almost extinct. The people I grew up with have been instrumental in bringing the Peregrine Falcon back from the brink. I have slowed down in my hunting activities using my birds as the medium, as it takes an extremely large amount of time to get a bird for point A to B. There are interesting webcams for those interested.
Last point, and that is my education. It is history based, but I have a major interest in religious beliefs. It is a touchy subject, along with politics, and I am trying to get some discussions going on Facebook, and Myspace.
I just hope it is clear that my association with Wil is not related to any of my other interests. I wish him the best of luck in whatever plans he has.
Back to subs briefly. My outspoken words are a product of my past, and just how short life can be. If I can experiment with an idea like Wil's hulls, I don't know what it will come out to be. I do want to be on board a hull built by Wil and see what I can make of it. Down pointing viewports aside, it is only in my mind what his hulls can do. He has put his life into this and I think it deserves a fair chance for what he has in mind.
Stevevall is out there a lot in public forums and I find many people afraid of open debate. I am a for sure, a boat-rocker, but 40 years from now my words are going to be what is left. If I died today, I have done more than most and less than some.

 

Steveall,

the only reason it sounds like fiction to most is that

"Most people see the reason it won't work"
"Few see the path to making it work"
"Others fear that it will work"
"Fewer still walk the path!"

Each of us knows which of these paths we are on. It is pointless to argue over which one is correct, because each is as unique as the man walking it!

"Lead, Follow or get out of the way!" is a phrase many laughf at but few truely understand. It is actually a phrase dealing with how men of action relate to each other.

That said, it is allways wise to ask why not, at least once. But asking a man the same question over and over again is pointlees unless you are trying to start a fight or steal his pulpet from him.

RW and others have asked a great number of good probing questions, and these are well documented in the discussion. But like many forums it has digressed into proponents and opponents with little new usefull information and much re-iteration on both sides. A quick check of boatdesign.net shows that this is the exception to the rule not the rule.

So my question to us all is how do we proceed from here in a way where there is less quoting of he said this and more focus on here is how you can solve that problem. The latter, productive and encouraging posts, are the tone found on most of the rest of boatdesign.net.


p.s. There are a great many other threads on boatdesign.net that are much more suspect than why one should make a sub out of concrete. LOL

In my humble opinion it has devolved down into why one can not make an inexpensive sub of any kind or where you won't be able to park it or live aboard it. Most of the arguments are independant of the hull material for a given purpose.

Maybe these discussions should move to "Why subs make lousy houseboats" or "why the government will never let you own one" instead of airing these specific non concrete related issues out in the concrete sub thread?

Or maybee "I" am in the wrong place? I am here to exchange information of novel, low cost and "simple" systems which can address the operational and safety needs of a "Simple", low cost, submersible houseboat. My posts back that up with possible simpler solutions to functional requirements which are necissarily more complex and costly for military and research subs. they are arguably wider in scope than a concrete hull sub but are posted here because i feel they may offer solutions common to many hull types.

I am actually much more interested in seeing a hull in the US where I do not have to worry about the technologies being used by the bad guys so like will I keep key details to my self. but in the end most of this stuff is off the shelf.

I just want to see a low cost off the shelf preasure hull. Maybe some see that as a threat. But in reality the bad guys have many other easier options for disposable stealth craft some of which they are already using. dragging a 200 ton preasure hull through the jungle to the water does not feel stealthy to me. LOL

The rebar in that preasure hull is going to light up a SAR like a chritsmass tree during the 1-3 months it is being built! The same SAR they already use to track vehicle movement and building construction by the cartels.

Just my 22 cents.

The pulpet is yours!

 

Formation of SSS "Simple Submarine Systems"

Those interested in a thread focused on the identification of and development of SSS "Simple Submarine Systems" are welcome to participate at

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/sss-simple-submarine-systems-28014.html#post282357

This thread will probably break into many sub threads, no pun intended, focused on individual systems and individual simple candidate solutions to allow users to keep a focus on individual solutions with application over a wide range of civilian submarine applications.

I have no interest in taking trafic away from the concrete submarine thread but i realize that there are many of us that actually have a more focused purpose revolving arround simple low cost systems for civilian submarines, of which concrete preasure hulls are only a part.

Good luck to us all!

 

Proponents and opponents make for problems solving. The point is is that can a less expensive concrete pressure hull make some for the more expensive add-ons less of a burden? I hope so, and I want to give this a go.
Can it make an entry into the States with our help? I am ready to try it financially, and see if it has practical advantages over other types of materials. I will bet my money it can.
Wil wants to enter the US market, and I have given him options. Whether they make financial sense, it is up to his plan.
No one seems keen on a co-op that I mentioned some time ago. It was a new idea, and time will tel if more want to contribute. A main function of this thread. The sooner I start, either here or there, the sooner it is done.

 

Agreed

PanAmMan,

I couldn't agree more with you on the regressing dialogue.

I often wonder if I'm in the right place here.

Lets hope for more openminded collaboration at SSS!

Tom

 

Very nice post Pan.

You must realize that we are participating here in a modern version of the finest nautical tradition:

"Grave fears were entertained by some that at this point I should fail. I myself gave some thought to the advisability of a " professional caulker." The very first blow I struck on the cotton with the caulking-iron, which I thought about right many others thought wrong. "it'll crawl!" Cried a man from Marion, passing with a basket of clams on his back. "It' craw!" cried another from West Island when he saw me driving cotton into the seams.
"How fast will it craw?" cried my old captain friend, who had been towed by many a lively sperm-whale. "Tell us how fast," cried he, "that we may get into port in time?""



"Lead, follow or get out of the way"...

A corollary is that experienced hands are willing to pay top dollar for front row seats when they sense the wheels are about to fall off a cart. The habitués of this board are by and large highly qualified leaders in their fields who know how to get the job done. Negative commentary from these folks might not stem so much from lack of imagination or initiative as an abundance of experiences which suggest untested weaknesses in a given proposal.

I find a couple of ideals presented here don’t wash with my experiences.
The submarine as a cruising platform will face difficulties in finding and paying for yard facilities capable of handling the hulls. Using the sub for “cruising” and “yachting” as proposed here suggest to me that the hull should share many similarities with the surface bound brethren: The hull should not be unduly draft restricted, the hulls deck should be set up in such a manner that all the tasks required of deck work can in fact be accomplished, the vessel should provide for a least a modicum of habitable deck space for taking the air and view of one’s local. Perhaps the hull can be designed to go 'lite ship' so as to be hauled by conventional yard gear.

In answer to the very first of these concerns the concrete submarine is presented as requiring no maintenance. While at the first blush this could be sold as “green” by dragging your own reef ecology along for the ride, I see large liabilities to this approach.
Running gear and control surfaces will suffer. Viewports will be obscured. A fully fouled hull will simply rot if exposed to the sun for a couple of hours to the extent that strong men will retch if within a quarter of a mile. As a consequence the hull must remain submerged to the base of the conning tower at all times. A fouled hull prohibits deck work, it prohibits side tying to quays or docks as the submerged hull cannot be fendered, it consigns the vessel to the outer reaches of harbors where its draft can be accommodated, it removes any possibility of taking the airs on deck, it subjects the owners to septic lacerations and damage to tenders while trying to provision or board the vessel in the exposed outer harbors where they find themselves.
On anchorages- while it is presented that the entering vessel must have sufficient knowledge so as to not run afoul of the sub, consider- are you still in a recognized anchorage when you have found sufficient depth to take to the bottom?

Too negative??

Some positive input- Who could argue with the dreams of another? What a grand enterprise- a functional/affordable submarine.
To my mind such a vessel if designed for cruising should be more than the one trick pony- it should share many of the attributes of the surface vessel for much of cruising is found near the constraints of land.

Just a thought... How it this secondary bond in this hull at the fins going to work out- this hull provided for a customer who is looking for 1000m operational depth..
Is this part of the pressure hull? I trust it is not.

Look at 1:01/1:11 on this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLv22CPYFSo